A New "anti-D&D" Era

[Reynard]

In the late 80s and early 90s, the tide of the TTRPG world turned against D&D. White Wolf's the World of Darkness was the most prominent alternative, but there was a big push of new games. We got new editions of classics that had appeared shortly after D&D, as well as a lot of brand new ideas. Unlike a lot of current innovation, much of which rely on just a couple systems like PbtA and previously Fate along with things like Free League's and Modiphius' house systems, most of those 90s games came out with new, unique, often baffling game systems attached to equally new, unique and baffling worlds.

I feel like we could be at the start of a new 90s in regards to an era where D&D is less popular and there is a new surge of innovation. MCDM looks to be leading the charge, and I think some of the companies that were considering making D&D clones might adjust their plans and do something new given that 5E under Creative Commons is now safe to publish for again. Those that want to publish for 5E will, but those that want to make their own games will have to do more than make a slightly different 5E to succeed.

I for one would love it if a new era of pushing back against 5E and D&D's dominance commenced, coupled with a renaissance in new system design.

 

[Bedrockgames]

In the late 80s and early 90s, the tide of the TTRPG world turned against D&D. White Wolf's the World of Darkness was the most prominent alternative, but there was a big push of new games. We got new e3ditions of classics that had appeared shortly after D&D, as well as a lot of brand new ideas. Unlike a lot of current innovation, much of which rely on just a couple systems like PbtA and previously Fate along with things like Free League's and Modiphius' house systems, most of those 90s games came out with new, unique, often baffling game systems attached to equally new, unique and baffling worlds.

I remember these days quite well. You didn't quite have the landscape you do today, as you point out. One of my favorites from that period was TORG but there were a lot of really great games and settings. I also remember White wolf giving D&D a big run for its money.

I feel like we could be at the start of a new 90s in regards to an era where D&D is less popular and there is a new surge of innovation. MCDM looks to be leading the charge, and I think some of the companies that were considering making D&D clones might adjust their plans and do something new given that 5E under Creative Commons is now safe to publish for again. Those that want to publish for 5E will, but those that want to make their own games will have to do more than make a slightly different 5E to succeed.

I for one would love it if a new era of pushing back against 5E and D&D's dominance commenced, coupled with a renaissance in new system design.

It is hard to say how things will play out this time around. The environment is very different. And it is still hard to evaluate the full impact of the OGL thing. It would be nice to see a wider variety of viable systems break into the mainstream more. I also wouldn't mind more unique systems-settings

 

[TerraDave]

I agree with the first para, not sure about the second.

I also remember those days well. WoD, GURPS, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, TORG, Palladium games, CoC, different versions of Traveller...these were all relatively popular. Many groups would play multiple systems. D&D on the other hand was splatty, felt dated, and TSR (or T$R) would frequently attacks its own fans.

But apparently the overall hobby was becoming more and more niche, and then got hit pretty hard by Magic. I think by 2000 there was a feeling that the whole thing was on the edge.

Now things are very different. D&D can decline from a very high peak. Thats possible. But open gaming and the next big tier of companies--listed in the OP--will probably continue to dominate. Its not like there are no new games, in fact there seems to be tons of them. But those network effects and all that seem to make it very hard to break out or gain much of a following.

 

[Parmandur]

Powered by the Apocalypse is now in Target.

 

[Reynard]

Powered by the Apocalypse is now in Target.

That's no doubt due to it being Avatar (not the blue space cat one, the other one) but it's still a good thing. People discovering the hobby by way of things that aren't D&D can only help. I am actually curious to see that starter set, mostly to find out how they teach roleplaying by way of PbtA.

That said, I am hoping for a lot more innovation that yet another variation on PbtA.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think the fates of "5e" and "D&D" diverged the day WotC released the 5e SRD under creative commons, and the divergence will only increase over time. And thus anti-D&Dism and anti-5eism will diverge more over time. For every designer who took the OGL fiasco as time to reevaluate their relationship with D&D and 5e and realized the day had come to forge their own game from scratch, I think there is another thinking about how they can capitalize on WotC abandoning a wildly popular game with a vast install base in favor of an aimless remix thereof, while at the same time giving the core of it away to anyone who wants to make their own remix. There will be lots of 5e games long after D&D ceases to be one of them.

Which is all to say that I am, myself a 5e cloner, and I plan to keep right on keeping on with playing 5e in both original and clone flavors, but I still would count myself as part of an "anti-D&D" movement in that OneD&D is the 5e clone I have the least interest in or hope for, and I am very much doing my own thing with my clone, just not from scratch.

 

[Retreater]

MCDM looks to be leading the charge, and I think some of the companies that were considering making D&D clones might adjust their plans and do something new given that 5E under Creative Commons is now safe to publish for again.

I mean, whatever MCDM is going to do is WAY off in the future. Pathfinder 2E is selling gangbusters. Kobold Press's Black Flag has started a public playtest. Cubicle 7 has a system on Kickstarter. EN Publishing created Level Up even before the fiasco.
I don't see MCDM as leading any more than the other companies.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

how they can capitalize on WotC abandoning a wildly popular game with a vast install base in favor of an aimless remix thereof, while at the same time giving the core of it away to anyone who wants to make their own remix.

This is kinda nonsensical given the fact that they aren’t abandoning 5e, the revised core books are neither aimless nor a remix, just an update or revision.

All those new remixes are going to feed into 5e as published by wizards. Look at what Kobold press put out for their new “core fantasy game”. It’s compatible with 5e characters, so far, as is everything in the new wotc playtest.

Perhaps you have noticed that they’ve stopped even calling it the OneDnD Playtest, and instead refer to it in videos and in the latest UA, as either simply “this unearthed arcana series” or “the playtest for the 2024 PHB” or similar.

Because it’s not a new game, and all the CC D&D coming out will reference a Creative Commons license that leads back to wotc D&D , using rules structures that will be shared with that game.

The diversion you’re so sure of is…very unlikely, IMO.

 

[Parmandur]

That's no doubt due to it being Avatar (not the blue space cat one, the other one) but it's still a good thing. People discovering the hobby by way of things that aren't D&D can only help. I am actually curious to see that starter set, mostly to find out how they teach roleplaying by way of PbtA.

That said, I am hoping for a lot more innovation that yet another variation on PbtA.

Powered by the Apocalypse, IMO, might be the single most viable competitor to D&D I'm the history of RPGs, particularly in the age of streaming.

 

[Parmandur]

This is kinda nonsensical given the fact that they aren’t abandoning 5e, the revised core books are neither aimless nor a remix, just an update or revision.

All those new remixes are going to feed into 5e as published by wizards. Look at what Kobold press put out for their new “core fantasy game”. It’s compatible with 5e characters, so far, as is everything in the new wotc playtest.

Perhaps you have noticed that they’ve stopped even calling it the OneDnD Playtest, and instead refer to it in videos and in the latest UA, as either simply “this unearthed arcana series” or “the playtest for the 2024 PHB” or similar.

Because it’s not a new game, and all the CC D&D coming out will reference a Creative Commons license that leads back to wotc D&D , using rules structures that will be shared with that game.

The diversion you’re so sure of is…very unlikely, IMO.

Thus fulfilling Ryan Dancey's original goal for the OGL.

 

[Scribe]

This is kinda nonsensical given the fact that they aren’t abandoning 5e, the revised core books are neither aimless nor a remix, just an update or revision.

All those new remixes are going to feed into 5e as published by wizards. Look at what Kobold press put out for their new “core fantasy game”. It’s compatible with 5e characters, so far, as is everything in the new wotc playtest.

Perhaps you have noticed that they’ve stopped even calling it the OneDnD Playtest, and instead refer to it in videos and in the latest UA, as either simply “this unearthed arcana series” or “the playtest for the 2024 PHB” or similar.

Because it’s not a new game, and all the CC D&D coming out will reference a Creative Commons license that leads back to wotc D&D , using rules structures that will be shared with that game.

The diversion you’re so sure of is…very unlikely, IMO.

I believe you are correct, frustratingly so.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I believe you are correct, frustratingly so.

On the other hand, you’re going to see a lot of stuff that ranges much farther afield over time, as well, exploring what 5e could be if the bulk of the audience had different preferences.

It’s the stuff that really is a 5e-clone that is going to strongly point back to what wotc is doing, even if they don’t intend to, but even the stuff that explores truly new space will still reference the core rules kernel of the 5.x SRD to some extent, just like pbta games point back toward Apocalypse World.

That doesn’t mean there will be any lack of innovation within that game design ecosystem.

 

[billd91]

I remember those days too and there were plenty of people who couldn’t talk up their own game without taking a jab at D&D. I found (and still find) that attitude a real turn off. It‘s just crappy marketing.
You can have a Non-D&D movement without it being an Anti-D&D movement.

 

[kenada]

I dislike the juxtaposition of games other than D&D as “anti-D&D”, especially given the sensitivity regarding how other games are discussed in relation to D&D. “Non-D&D” seems more neutral.

 

[overgeeked]

I feel like we could be at the start of a new 90s in regards to an era where D&D is less popular and there is a new surge of innovation.

It’s certainly possible and to be hoped for, if for no other reason than the health of the hobby and industry.

MCDM looks to be leading the charge

They’re making a new game yes, but their reputation was made by being big 5E supporters. I’m not sure about the numbers, but I don’t know if they’ll be able to keep up as they have without the 5E numbers. I hope they can. But we often wildly underestimate just how dominant D&D is. This whole thing certainly lead to a big group of people looking at other stuff, but how big? how diffuse? and how prolonged with their exodus be?

I think some of the companies that were considering making D&D clones might adjust their plans and do something new given that 5E under Creative Commons is now safe to publish for again. Those that want to publish for 5E will, but those that want to make their own games will have to do more than make a slightly different 5E to succeed.

That’s the rub. And that’s why WotC dropped 5.1 into CC-BY. To end the conversation and to give the industry even more reason to make 5E-focused products. A lot of companies only stay afloat because of their 5E products. I doubt a lot of them are going to be very interested in walking away from that to make something new. Especially now.

I for one would love it if a new era of pushing back against 5E and D&D's dominance commenced, coupled with a renaissance in new system design.

I would be over the moon if D&D stopped strangling the industry. But that’s where the money is. It’s a business decision.

 

[John R Davis]

I dislike the juxtaposition of games other than D&D as “anti-D&D”, especially given the sensitivity regarding how other games are discussed in relation to D&D. “Non-D&D” seems more neutral.

Unfortunately that is the world we live. If you are pro something your seen as anti something else. I remember when DND was quiet and people got all sniffy about it. The patient has pulled through and thrived. I like lots games and certainly don't hate any.
Long living gaming. DND included.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Thus fulfilling Ryan Dancey's original goal for the OGL.

Pretty much.

 

[kenada]

Unfortunately that is the world we live. If you are pro something your seen as anti something else. I remember when DND was quiet and people got all sniffy about it. The patient has pulled through and thrived. I like lots games and certainly don't hate any.
Long living gaming. DND included.

That’s why I indicated a preference for a neutral term. Fanning the flames of antipathy is not conducive to productive discourse (and obviously that also goes for non-D&D games if/how they are compared to D&D).

 

[bloodtide]

I do feel like 5E is burning out D&D. A lot of people love how "easy and simple" 5E is.....at first. But it does not have the staying power of a long term game. The big hole is that it simply does not have the rules. I, myself, add a ton of house rules to 5E to make it more like 2E. But that is a lot of work for most people.

I do see gamers, playing 5E for a couple years, start to feel 5E is going nowhere. They just have the same action and same fights over and over again. Everyone in their group uses the same couple "cool" races, classes, and such....and nothing else.

And this is on top of the low imagination: I see a lot of DMs struggle with this. They describe a caste as "just a square of stone". A city is just "some streets and shops". And worst of all when they have to describe an Abyssal city......it's just "some streets and towers, oh with demons".

I really think 6E will bump D&D down and out too....

 

[Jahydin]

And this is on top of the low imagination: I see a lot of DMs struggle with this. They describe a caste as "just a square of stone". A city is just "some streets and shops". And worst of all when they have to describe an Abyssal city......it's just "some streets and towers, oh with demons".

That's me. Which is one of the reasons I quit dislike DMing D&D.

Pathfinder 2E is much more enjoyable to run with its crunchy foundation to lean on rather than my imagination.

Edit: Can't ever just "quit" DMing D&D. There's always a group that insists that's the game to play...