A New "anti-D&D" Era

[dirtypool]

Vampire was not created or made possible by anti-dnd feelings.

It’s sales dominance was fueled by an undercurrent of displeasure with D&D and its market dominance

if you disagree prove that vampire was made possible by this.

I offered a bit of evidence containing interviews with both players and the creators of the World of Darkness, but you dismissed in favor of your own “expert” opinion.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

WotC hasn't even tried their hand at something not focused on simplicity in years.

But the astounding thing about that is they still don't seem to be very good at making things simple. Or at least not simple in a useful way.

I mean, I get it, it's very hard for a game designer to not introduce more complexity than is necessary. Being someone who likes game complexity is usually part of how you become a game designer, and these are games that involve an element of simulation, which just begs for complexity, nuance, exceptions, etc. I just think that if they want to make accessibility a priority, with all their resources they should be bringing in some people with a professional background in learning and accessibility, but instead it's still seems to just be them making bets based on gut impressions of designers, people who are usually unusually adept at understanding game rules, as to the average player will trip up on. It's not a recipe for simplicity that actually improves accessibility. It's a recipe for random simplifying.

 

[overgeeked]

There is a very excellent documentary about the World of Darkness that features interviews with lots of Masquerade players who state they in fact DID play because they had specific issues with D&D

As someone who lived through that time, it's absolutely true that people did not play D&D for a lot of reasons. Some of them left the hobby, some found tangentially related hobbies, and some played other RPGs instead, including Vampire.

I'm not sure about the veracity of this documentary. Isn't that the one put out by the owners talking up how awesome, mind blowing, unique, and perfect White Wolf games were? Not sure that I'd trust them with writing their own history.

 

[dirtypool]

As someone who lived through that time

What is the point of claiming that you were in the hobby at the time? The other person did it too. I also lived through that time, as did many other players. So?

I'm not sure about the veracity of this documentary. Isn't that the one put out by the owners

Neither Kevin Lee, Giles Alderson nor Henrik Johansson (the production team) owned White Wolf, CCP or Paradox. The documentary was produced in the period between the death of official WW product and the Paradox purchase - so no, not “the one put out by the owners.”

Not sure that I'd trust them with writing their own history.

As stated earlier. The doc interviews PLAYERS who state they had issues with D&D and chose to play WW games

 

[MGibster]

As someone who lived through that time, it's absolutely true that people did not play D&D for a lot of reasons. Some of them left the hobby, some found tangentially related hobbies, and some played other RPGs instead, including Vampire.

I'm not sure about the veracity of this documentary. Isn't that the one put out by the owners talking up how awesome, mind blowing, unique, and perfect White Wolf games were? Not sure that I'd trust them with writing their own history.

Yeah. The one with all the thin, cool, and beautiful players. It was more like an advertisement than a documentary.

 

[Fenris-77]

But the astounding thing about that is they still don't seem to be very good at making things simple. Or at least not simple in a useful way.

This is made way more difficult because they have a whole herd of sacred cows that can can't be killed and eaten least lest they get more wrath. See 4th Edition for more details...

 

[dirtypool]

Yeah. The one with all the thin, cool, and beautiful players. It was more like an advertisement than a documentary.

Except of course it was an independently produced documentary shot at the Grande Masquerade LARP event. Yeah a lot the photogenic people made the cut, because that’s often who makes the cut. But how does that invalidate the statements the players made?

Because if “felt” like a marketing tool to you that must mean that the other poster is correct and Pathfinder is the only game driven by blowback against D&D? Do you see how that logic train never quite made it onto the track?

 

[Lanefan]

Too true. As a News Junkie and heavy internet user, as it is my job as well as my hobby, I stay on top of things. So I was right there day to day during the OGL fumbles. Yet, on the weekend I meet roughly fifty gamers at the Rec. And maybe two have heard of it...

What was the average age of these 50 (or so) gamers? I'll be rather surprised if you say it's under 25, 'cause IME that cohort was right on top of this stuff.

But is the point of the game to "just get to 20th level and quit?" I guess some might play D&D like that, but I never saw it as that common. There are the players all focused on rules and combat. So they only play the game to get more abilities and points for their character. They think "just one more plus" will make them finally happy...again.

Perhaps. It's the difference between seeing levelling/ability gain as the main reason for play and seeing levelling/ability gain as merely a side effect of play.

The long term game is not about "just getting levels", it's about a massive role playing storytelling campaign. A group of characters in for a Long Game to do the near impossible. 3X has endlessly complex rules, enough to keep a campaign going. 5E just does not have that.

In fairness, rules complexity and potential campaign length aren't necessarily directly related. You could, for example, have a very rules-heavy system but if it's designed such that the characters reach the mechanical endpoint* after a relatively low amount of sessions then that system is still not likely to be conducive to a long-running campaign. Or conversely, you could have a very rules-light system where the characters rarely if ever advance mechanically, thus meaning you can play through years worth of story without any real threat of reaching the game's mechanical endpoint*.

* - as in, the point out to which the game mechanics have been designed to be functional, equivalent to 20th level in 3e-5e, 30th in 4e, etc.

 

[Lanefan]

It’s sales dominance was fueled by an undercurrent of displeasure with D&D and its market dominance

Different communities, different outcomes, I guess.

Around here in the 90s, while there was certainly some V:tM interest the big - and I mean near-extermination-level - killer of D&D was Magic cards with a bit of help from Pokemon; which is why it's always been a bit ironic to me that the company that nearly killed D&D is the one that, in the end, saved it.

 

[MGibster]

Except of course it was an independently produced documentary shot at the Grande Masquerade LARP event. Yeah a lot the photogenic people made the cut, because that’s often who makes the cut. But how does that invalidate the statements the players made?

The documentary was a love letter to Vampire and they were cherry picking the players they interviewed to tell a particular narrative. All that talk about attracting more women to the hobby, bragging about gaming groups made up of nearly 50% women, and no mention of the rampant sexual harrassment or even assaults? Being independently produced doesn't make it a balanced documentary.