A new take on Mana casting.

[DogBackward]

Monte Cook has an article I just read (linked from another thread), which got me thinking. Admittedly, I only got about halfway through it before inspiration struck, but I thought I'd pop in and see what other people thought of it.

The article is here.

My idea is rather simple. Like Monte said, there are certain spells that are both simple enough and ubiquitous enough that they really don't need to be limited to "I can do this once and it's gone." It wouldn't hurt balance to have them be available more often, even at will.

I've been working, on and off, on a mana-based magic system for a year or so now, and this article kinda spurred me on with a new idea. Spells could be given two designations: Simple and Complex. You would have a mana pool, based on caster level and your primary ability score. This mana pool would regenerate at the rate of 1/round, as long as you don't cast a spell in that round.

Simple spells use one mana per caster level, possibly using the psionics method of augmentation. So, you could sit here and use simple spells over and over again without doing much more than waiting a few rounds in between.

Complex spells, however, only use one mana per spell level, and are more powerful or more useful, whatever. The drawback, however, is that using a Complex spell drains your mana for good. Mana spent to cast a complex spell does not return at the normal 1/round rate, but refreshes after you get your 8 hours of rest, like normal spells.

This would serve to make sure that casters are always usefull, throughout the day. It will also serve to keep things balanced, as you can't just go off and use all of your best spells at will. And you still have to pay attention to resources. Even though you can use your Simple spells all day without worry, if you spend all your mana on Complex spells, you won't be able to use those Simple spells anymore, since they both draw from the same pool.

So, what do you all think about that? I think I'll probably run with it, see how well it works out, though I'm not sure I'd be up to seperating all the spells into Simple/Complex. I'll damn well give it a try, though...

 

[Pyrex]

At the basic level, it's not a bad idea at all. Balancing a spell point system is really hard though.

How about the following compromise, which is closer to what Monte posited?

Reduce spell slots per level (per day) by one or two; and define those slots as "quick recovery" slots.

The Wizard (or sorcerer really, works fine either way) now has two sets of spell slots. A 'general' set and a 'quick recovery' set.

As a general rule, any spell that does HP damage with a duration of Instantaneous can be prepared in either a 'general' or 'quick recovery' spell.

All other spells must be prepared as 'general' spells.

Then simply note that all 'quick recovery' slots can be restored (as per Pearl of Power for the Wizard) with one minute of rest.

 

[DogBackward]

That would work great as a quick fix, yeah. I think, maybe... 1/2 spells per level, rounded down could be quick recovery, and the rest general.

I still want to work on teh spell-point version, however. Mostly because I don't like the way magic is done now, with the spell slots and preparation. It doesn't give you enough control over your spells. For one, I've always seen magic as a sort of lego-style affair. You take this piece here, add it to that piece there, connect these two pieces and voila! you've got a spell. As it is, it's more like buying an action figure. Sure, you can aim where it goes and move it around a bit, but otherwise it just sits there, always being the exact same thing.

It would be a much bigger task, but I think converting magic to a more flexible, variable system would be a good way to go. Even if it just starts with point-based casting, a la psionics, that allows you to decide how powerful each spell is, and thus conserve your energy if you wish.

I dunno, I'll keep working on it. Until then, however, I think I'll introduce those Quick Recovery slots in my next game...

Thanks.

 

[Destil]

There was a post here a few weeks ago that suggested a spell point system where you would have different pools of MP that regenerate at rates of round/hours/days/weeks et cetera. I've been thinking about it a lot recently...

Fast MP - Your fast MP recovers every round. So if you have 8 fast MP max you gain back 8 / round. There would be some basic, limited attack and defense spells that draw from fast MP. Max is caster level + primary casting ability score bonus. You can cast most complex spells (charm person, for instance) with a duration, but you reduce your max fast MP while it is in effect (in effect pay the cost every round).

Daily MP - Your daily MP recovers after 8 hours of rest. This is for stuff like stoneskin and other must have or game-breaking powers (teleport, long duration summoning, mind blank, really big guns (horid wilting, fireball) et cetera). When you cast a duration spell with daily MP the duration is as per the spell.

Weekly MP - Used mostly for magic item creating and powering ritual like effects (epic magic at low levels?). Recovers at 1 point / week and your max is your caster level.

 

[Pyrex]

Interesting thought. Needs a bit of fleshing out, but it's not a bad starting point.

For example, what about something like the following?

Fast MP:
Your fast MP pool should have enough MP in it to cast your highest level spell once, and regen enough mana to cast mid-level spells every round. (i.e., I'd say a 16th level Sor should have about 8 Fast Mana and recover about 4 per round, assuming mana cost = spell level)

Fast MP Spells:
Generally any Instantaneous-duration spell or any spell that does nothing but deal HP damage should be a 'fast' spell

Daily MP:
Casters should have Daily MP roughly equal to their RAW casting total.

Daily MP Spells:
Most spells go here.

Weekly MP/Spells:
I think I'd actually use this bucket for spells that typically have XP costs and then eliminate the XP component at a ratio of approximately 1WMP per 500xp. For Example, a Limited Wish might require 1 weekly MP which would be recovered a week later. A Wish would require 10WMP and thusly require 10 weeks to recover the mana.

On second thought, I'd probably double-tap the weeklyMP spells. A Limited Wish should probably cost 7 dailyMP and 1 weeklyMP for the XP component.

 

[Destil]

Interesting thought. Needs a bit of fleshing out, but it's not a bad starting point.. . .

Yeah, that's about the same lines I'm thinking. One of my goals would be keeping you from having to track round by round FastMP (hence the idea that you regenerate your max every round)... most likely fast MP would have a variety of simple spells like Energy Ray, and each extra die of damage would cost 2 MP.

I'm going to refer to spells as being Simple, Complex or Ritual for this system. Simple can be cast with fast MP, an upkeep cost means your current fast MP is reduced as listed. Complex can only be cost with daily MP (though some like limited wish may require weekly MP as well). Ritual can only be cast with weekly MP and typically have long casting times.

Spells cost caster level MP, and can not be cast below their minimum caster level based on spell level (i.e. a fireball can't be cast with less than 5 MP, as a 3rd level spell).

Mage
Hit Die: d6 (d4 is a kinda unplayable sacred cow, and we'll be toning down long term buffs here I think).
Skill Points / Level: 2.

Total Fast MP: Caster Level.

Number of Fast Spells readied at a time: 1/2 class level (round up). You can prepare new fast spells by resting 8 hours.

Max spell level known: 1/2 class level (round up).

Learn new spells like a wizard.

Spell levels

Acid Splash - Level Simple 0. For every extra 1 fast MP you spend on Acid splash you increase the damage by 1d3.
Charm Person - Level Complex 1, Simple 3. When cast as a simple spell it has an upkeep cost of 5 fast MP.
Energy Jolt - Level simple 1. 1d6 energy damage per 2 caster levels within close range, choose an energy type.
Energy Spread - Simple 3. As energy jolt, but a cone, range 5 ft / 2 caster levels.

 

[DogBackward]

I think one thing I'm going to do with my system is eliminate those pesky 0-level spells. Prestidigitation will always be in effect, as I see this as spending the minor energy, not enough to power a 1st level spell, but enough to make minor effects. Every mage worth his salt should be able to detect magic at will, as magic is what they live and breath. Arcane Mark is a very handy spell, if only to prove that you are who you say you are. At least in my games, it is impossible to fake an arcane mark, unless you're a good forger and the other guy can't detect magic. Of the others, none of them are really huge effect, and none of them are really big deals. They could all be made into slightly more powerful 1st level spells.

I like the weekly MP idea, though. Especially since I don't like making spellcasters get behind in experience just because they want to make special items. And I don't use magic shops in my games. I'm thinking, though, that I'm going to implement a rule about how many spells you can have in effect at one time. This will include how many magic items you can create, as each item you make continues to draw from you as a source of power.

So... you can have up to 1/2 your total caster level in Simple Spell levels active at one time. You can have up to your total caster level in Complex or Ritual spell levels active at one time, including your magic items. All of these numbers can be increased by taking feats, and perhaps a PrC dedicated to having many spells active at once. And there would be an Artificer feat to make your items count as lower-level for the purposes of your Spells Active limit. Note that this is spell levels active, not spells active. And would be a minimum of "1", of course. So, at level 6, you could have one third level spell active, or one second and one first, or three first. I'm not sure whether casting an instantaneous spell should affect this, though... I'm leaning toward "yes", but I'll hav eto think on it more.

This would keep things balanced when you've got, essentially, unlimited Simple SPells per day, and unilimited "XP" for the purpose of magic item creation. It's also why you don't find magic shops... a spellcaster can only create so many items before his power limit is reached, so he'd probably keep them to himself.

As for the mana regenerating entirely per round... I myself am going to stick to Mana as I mentioned in my first post, and just add the second tier of mana... perhaps call it something different. If your "Fast MP" regenerates every round, then they're casting their most powerful spell... every round. And there's no point in saying you have to pay extra to increase the effects... why wouldn't they? It's all coming back next round.

And keeping track of my mana would be simple. Use tokens. When you cast a simple spell, move the amount of tokens from your pool to the other side, representing spent mana. Return one token per round to represent gaining back your one mana. If you cast a complex spell, remove the token, and put it back in your bag to show that it's gone for the day.

 

[Pyrex]

As for the mana regenerating entirely per round... I myself am going to stick to Mana as I mentioned in my first post, and just add the second tier of mana... perhaps call it something different. If your "Fast MP" regenerates every round, then they're casting their most powerful spell... every round. And there's no point in saying you have to pay extra to increase the effects... why wouldn't they? It's all coming back next round.

Exactly. Your 'FastMana' shouldn't allow you to cast more than one Top-Level spell in a row. If you want to cast back-to-back high-level spells, you need to pull mana from your dailyMana to augment your fastMana.

Your fastMana should probably regenerate fast enough to let you cast Max/2 level spells fairly constantly though. (i.e., by the time you can cast 8th level spells, casting 4th level spells every round isn't so bad.)