A New Version of Toughness - More Worthwhile?

[Nifft]

As to the OP, it's different than the direction you're going in, but if you have Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, there's a feat in there called Sturdy. Much closer to the effect of Toughness, and more powerful.

Sturdy is pretty sweet -- you gain either 4 hp, or double your Con bonus, whichever is greater. (You gain 2x Con once per feat, not once per level.)

My Dracha Warmain is a badass. 24 hp at level 1. Muah-ha-ha-ha-ha!

-- N

 

[ValhallaGH]

It certainly isn't as good as Improved Toughness, but Improved Toughness is already better than Toughness in 6 out of 7 feat opportunities (1st being the only one where Toughness has the upper hand).

So why not fold the two together?

Here's the Toughness feat I use at my table.
Toughness
Benefit: This feat grants 2 hp + 1 per character level. This benefit is both retroactive and progressive, granting an extra 1 hp at every level after it is taken. This feat may not be taken multiple times.

It's worked really well, and my undead monsters have really enjoyed it. I do not allow Improved Toughness of any form (and there are multiple versions out there).

 

[Aus_Snow]

I like the Sturdy feat from Arcana Evolved, myself. It's a nice compromise between Toughness - blech! :\ - and several of the over-the-top (or just bizarre) variants out there.

Also, I like that Warmains get it automatically at 1st level. But then, I quite like Warmains.

 

[Nifft]

Toughness
Benefit: This feat grants 2 hp + 1 per character level. This benefit is both retroactive and progressive, granting an extra 1 hp at every level after it is taken. This feat may not be taken multiple times.

That is a nice, simple change. I think I may add that to my game after discussing with the players.

Thanks, -- N

 

[airwalkrr]

What about a variant that grants a +1 to your hit die roll at each level, to the maximum of your hit die. So if a character rolls maximum all the time, it doesn't give him anything, but if the character rolls 1 below maximum all the time, he gets something. It could also stack with itself, granting up to the maximum. In this event it actually becomes more useful for fighters, but it isn't quite as good as Improved Toughness (which is, let's face it, too good).

 

[Angel Tarragon]

That is a nice, simple change. I think I may add that to my game after discussing with the players.

I'll be doing the same.

 

[Nifft]

What about a variant that grants a +1 to your hit die roll at each level, to the maximum of your hit die. So if a character rolls maximum all the time, it doesn't give him anything, but if the character rolls 1 below maximum all the time, he gets something. It could also stack with itself, granting up to the maximum. In this event it actually becomes more useful for fighters, but it isn't quite as good as Improved Toughness (which is, let's face it, too good).

This version would give less than one hp/level, but would not do much to reduce variance for large hit dice. The Barbarian would benefit least.

(The thing that I like about my system of HP generation -- you always get at least half your max hp at every level -- is that it reduces variance while having a minimal impact on expected value. So, everyone is average at worst. It rewards the high hit die more than the low hit die -- d4 gains +.25, while d12 gains +1.25 expected value.)

Anyway. IMHO Improved Toughness isn't that overpowered, provided you can only take it once. It's a strong feat, but so is Improved Initiative.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Now I'm thinking about the difference between Toughness, Improved Toughness, Sturdy and my normal HP generation method. It boils down to what is rewarded.

• Toughness -- NOTHING is rewarded. You gain a flat bonus, period.
• Improved Toughness -- LEVEL is rewarded. You get a benefit every time you go up in level.
• Sturdy -- ABILITY SCORE is rewarded (higher Con = higher bonus).
• Nifft's Awesome Idea -- HIT DIE SIZE is rewarded. Barbarians benefit more than Sorcerers.

So... perhaps there should be three feats (or one Talent and two feats).

Tough Talent (Talent) 1st level only, you always gain at least half your HD when gaining a level, and you get +3 hp at 1st level. Taken once only.

Sturdy: 2x Con to HP (or +4 hp, whichever is more), one-time bonus, you may take this Feat multiple times.

Tough Ceremony: (Ceremonial) You gain 2 hp every three levels, retroactively and for all future levels. Taken once only.

Sturdy would continue to be the buff of choice for Dracha with Con 20, while Mojh Magisters might prefer to take the Tough Ceremony at 6th level (which will give them the same immediate benefit as Sturdy, but will continue to grow over time).

Truely tankish Dracha Warmains would take Tough Talent and Tough Ceremony at 1st level, and then take Sturdy for each additional Feat they get. Boring, but hard to kill by conventional means.

Thoughts?
Thanks, -- N

 

[Justin Bacon]

It certainly isn't as good as Improved Toughness, but Improved Toughness is already better than Toughness in 6 out of 7 feat opportunities (1st being the only one where Toughness has the upper hand).

Improved Toughness is, frankly, evidence of half-assed design.

1. Toughness is a crappy feat. Its utility starts out minimal and then becomes increasingly useless as time goes by.

2. Improved Toughness, OTOH, is what Toughness should have looked like originally: +1 hp per level is useful and it continues to be useful for as long as you play the character.

3. Improved Toughness doesn't have a prereq of Toughness. In fact, the only prereq for Improved Toughness serves no function except to prevent some characters from selecting the feat at the ONLY levels where Toughness is the (temporarily) superior or equal choice.

The only conceivable reason that the designers didn't rewrite Toughness as a +1 hp per level feat with no prereqs is that they specifically wanted a crippled feat for the purposes of PrC qualifications. This is, frankly, stupid. If you want someone to basically waste a feat selection to qualify for a PrC, just create a specific "dead" feat with no other benefit than that it allows you to take the PrC.

Toughness should be +1 hp per level. Improved Toughness would probably not be busted as a +2 hp per level feat with Toughness as a prereq, although if you're nervous about it you can probably toss in Great Fortitude as another prereq.

 

[airwalkrr]

Actually, I believe the problem with Toughness lies partially in AD&D expectations versus 3rd edition realities. 3 hit points was pretty major in AD&D. In 3e, it isn't very hot, except maybe at 1st or 2nd level. Designers who were still in an AD&D mindset were probably inclined to be wary about a feat granting bonus hp.

Nevertheless, the starting packages and various NPCs attest to the fact that the designers most likely saw Toughness as a feat that would appeal to characters with low hit dice. In the early days I saw many wizards and sorcerers, as well as a few rogues and bards with Toughness as their first feat. The only prestige class I know of that requires Toughness is the Dwarven Defender. Admittedly, for the power of that class, Toughness is an acceptable price to pay. But I agree in general that creating weak feats to serve as prerequisites for powerful prestige classes is bad game design.