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A Non-PHB only game?
- Thread starter FnordBear
- Start date
Robert Ranting
First Post
Complete Setting
When Complete Adventurer came out, and effectively "covered" all the bases again, I suggested the idea of developing a setting around the idea of having only the twelve base classes from those 4 books. How would such a setting look, and what about the world could cause those fundamental changes? Another local DM and I started work on the setting, and things went alright until we diverged on several matters. While he had no qualms about adding Psionics and all the XPH races into the setting, he refused to admit the additional races from the Races of...and Environment books into the project, and was steadfast on keeping the PHB races in the mix. At that point, the whole project broke down. I do however, think that the idea has merit. (Anyone interested might search for a thread on the "Complete Campaign" on WotC's campaign development boards).
The only major concessions which I might make to allowing the PHB races would be the humans, since they provide a baseline from which to compare the other races. Sure, a setting can work just fine without humans (take Talislanta, for example), but having "normal" people can highlight the unique qualities of the other species, and make them seem more special. Plus, the Illumians, Aventi, Half-Giants, and Elan have to come from somewhere. This comparative diversity is also the perfect vehicle for introducing Zarus, the ethnocentric LE God of Humanity (from Races of Destiny) and his followers as a major antagonist for the setting, as they try to persecute or destroy the other races. Call me old fashioned, but nothing says "BBEG" like "Nazi".
I would definately like to see such a setting take on a somewhat global scale, with oceans, deserts, glaciers, and a large "Oriental" region from which various classes might originate. A single "Eurasian" continent could probably sufficiently account for such diversity, while still allowing the possibility to expand the borders of the world if necessary.
I would like to see this discussion continue, and make some additional input and observations, but I'm afraid that I really must get to sleep presently.
Robert "Proponent of Non-Standard Worlds" Ranting
When Complete Adventurer came out, and effectively "covered" all the bases again, I suggested the idea of developing a setting around the idea of having only the twelve base classes from those 4 books. How would such a setting look, and what about the world could cause those fundamental changes? Another local DM and I started work on the setting, and things went alright until we diverged on several matters. While he had no qualms about adding Psionics and all the XPH races into the setting, he refused to admit the additional races from the Races of...and Environment books into the project, and was steadfast on keeping the PHB races in the mix. At that point, the whole project broke down. I do however, think that the idea has merit. (Anyone interested might search for a thread on the "Complete Campaign" on WotC's campaign development boards).
The only major concessions which I might make to allowing the PHB races would be the humans, since they provide a baseline from which to compare the other races. Sure, a setting can work just fine without humans (take Talislanta, for example), but having "normal" people can highlight the unique qualities of the other species, and make them seem more special. Plus, the Illumians, Aventi, Half-Giants, and Elan have to come from somewhere. This comparative diversity is also the perfect vehicle for introducing Zarus, the ethnocentric LE God of Humanity (from Races of Destiny) and his followers as a major antagonist for the setting, as they try to persecute or destroy the other races. Call me old fashioned, but nothing says "BBEG" like "Nazi".
I would definately like to see such a setting take on a somewhat global scale, with oceans, deserts, glaciers, and a large "Oriental" region from which various classes might originate. A single "Eurasian" continent could probably sufficiently account for such diversity, while still allowing the possibility to expand the borders of the world if necessary.
I would like to see this discussion continue, and make some additional input and observations, but I'm afraid that I really must get to sleep presently.
Robert "Proponent of Non-Standard Worlds" Ranting
The campaign I'm playing in right now is part-way to a non-core campaign. Although everyone elected to play a core race, the only core class being played is the dwarf cleric (our group feels that WotC has yet to publish a viable substitute for the cleric). I'm playing an orc crusader, and we also have a human beguiler and wu-jen. So far, we've no problems covering all the bases of a normal D&D adventure.
Stormborn
Explorer
In our current game, through no specific intent of anyone, each of the PCs has at least one non-PHB component. We have a human battle dancer (Dragon Compendium), half scout (Complete Adventurer), half-elf [house ruled human with elven features] battle sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana), and a desert half-orc (Unearted Arcana) cleric of Ganesh. I realize that last falls into the sub-race component so doesn't fit your criteria exactly, but is a much better choice IMO than the standard half-orc.
I certainly think that a non-PHB game is doable - if thats what your players want. I can see alot of balking going on when people are asked to abandon their favorite class or race for some "non-core" one they consider substandard. All the standard party roles can be filled by non-core products, you are going to want to take a careful look at things like spell lists, skills, and class features. In out game, for example, we altered some of the Scout's class skills to make him a more effective substitute for a rogue.
How far afield do you intend to go with this? Magic of Incarnum? Tome of Magic? Book of Nine Swords? As a DM you have a challange to come up with a cohesive world sans the standard races (which I think is a larger obstacle than the races), which may mean anticipating the choices your players will make or limiting them in someway. If you enjoy pregenerated adventures you are going to have to modify heavilly to eliminate the standard races. Although many of them are just "Humans with a twist" so that may not be too much of a problem.
I certainly think that a non-PHB game is doable - if thats what your players want. I can see alot of balking going on when people are asked to abandon their favorite class or race for some "non-core" one they consider substandard. All the standard party roles can be filled by non-core products, you are going to want to take a careful look at things like spell lists, skills, and class features. In out game, for example, we altered some of the Scout's class skills to make him a more effective substitute for a rogue.
How far afield do you intend to go with this? Magic of Incarnum? Tome of Magic? Book of Nine Swords? As a DM you have a challange to come up with a cohesive world sans the standard races (which I think is a larger obstacle than the races), which may mean anticipating the choices your players will make or limiting them in someway. If you enjoy pregenerated adventures you are going to have to modify heavilly to eliminate the standard races. Although many of them are just "Humans with a twist" so that may not be too much of a problem.
Dragonhelm
Knight of Solamnia
jhilahd said:
Agreed, that seems to be what the original poster is looking for. I'll just add that it's a complete rules system in and of itself.
Remathilis
Legend
Our DM discussed the idea, but only to emphasize the "silliness" of all the new base classes. :-(
However, all the roles could be filled, one way or another.
TANK: The knight wins this hands down, but samurai also are good tanks also.
MELEE: Beyond the above, the swashbuckler is a descent fighter and the and hexblade duskblade makes a good secondary fighter.
NUKE: Warmage, Warlock, and Wu Jen all can nuke with the best of them. The former two are specialists on nuking, IMHO.
HEALING: The Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Archivist and Dragon Shaman can all heal, but unless your willing to devote a lot of spell slots to it (in the former four) or have a very finite pool of healing (dragon shaman) no one will be able to cure conditions like a cleric can.
OTHER MAGIC: Favored Souls, Shugenjas, and Archivists can all learn misc. cleric spells. Beguilers are great at deception magic, and dread necromancers can handle the role of summoner/cannon-fodder master. However, no one has access to many of the classic staple spells (teleport, invisibility, knock) so problem-solving via spellcasting is limited.
TRAPS/Stealth: Ninjas, Spellthieves, and Scouts all have Trapfinding. All but Scout have open lock. All of them have good stealth skills as well. However, each are more limited than a rogue when it comes to sneak attacks.
BUFFING/SUPPORT: Marshals and Dragon Shaman are great buffers, as is a properly laid out divine caster (but that does take from his healing, above).
"Best Build" For sheer versatility, my choice would be for a party:
TANK: Knight (hp, defense, good attack)
NUKER: Warmage (lots of attack magic)
HEALER: Favored Soul (lots of spell slots, a few additional non-healing)
TRAPS: Scout (stealth, traps, wilderness survival)
BUFFER: Dragon Shaman (aura buffs, additional combat, additional healing)
However, all the roles could be filled, one way or another.
TANK: The knight wins this hands down, but samurai also are good tanks also.
MELEE: Beyond the above, the swashbuckler is a descent fighter and the and hexblade duskblade makes a good secondary fighter.
NUKE: Warmage, Warlock, and Wu Jen all can nuke with the best of them. The former two are specialists on nuking, IMHO.
HEALING: The Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Archivist and Dragon Shaman can all heal, but unless your willing to devote a lot of spell slots to it (in the former four) or have a very finite pool of healing (dragon shaman) no one will be able to cure conditions like a cleric can.
OTHER MAGIC: Favored Souls, Shugenjas, and Archivists can all learn misc. cleric spells. Beguilers are great at deception magic, and dread necromancers can handle the role of summoner/cannon-fodder master. However, no one has access to many of the classic staple spells (teleport, invisibility, knock) so problem-solving via spellcasting is limited.
TRAPS/Stealth: Ninjas, Spellthieves, and Scouts all have Trapfinding. All but Scout have open lock. All of them have good stealth skills as well. However, each are more limited than a rogue when it comes to sneak attacks.
BUFFING/SUPPORT: Marshals and Dragon Shaman are great buffers, as is a properly laid out divine caster (but that does take from his healing, above).
"Best Build" For sheer versatility, my choice would be for a party:
TANK: Knight (hp, defense, good attack)
NUKER: Warmage (lots of attack magic)
HEALER: Favored Soul (lots of spell slots, a few additional non-healing)
TRAPS: Scout (stealth, traps, wilderness survival)
BUFFER: Dragon Shaman (aura buffs, additional combat, additional healing)
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