A note on descriptions

[Magi_Siani]

The current Code of Conduct and Tavern Setting Rules came about *after* ISRP was let go by Wizards...so please don't try to connect how things worked there with how they are currently working. Wizards no longer has anything to do with ISRP...we are completely independant. The case could of course be made that the settings themselves, the published settings, belong to WotC and that is true. But we were given permission to use Greyhawk and we added in Planescape and Forgotten Realms at patron request.

I wrote both codes...and posted them on the UH forum...and we asked the patrons for comments and ideas. Many apparently didn't get the word that we would relocate to UH despite the fact the ISRP WizOs were passing that word actively during the last days.

Both codes were left on site for comment for two weeks. I indeed did rewrite sections based on paton input, especially the clarifications parts of the setting rules.

Was it voted on democratically? No.
Will it be? No.
Were the rules as written objected to? No. Aside from a couple of people who were counter-pointed by other patrons, there was no objection to the rules as written.

A lot of people weren't there to look apparently. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't come into the matter now. We were working very hard to maintain the ISRP in the face of uproars at Wizards, team difficulties, and the fact that from that point on, we weren't being paid at all, most of the team was in shock to one degree or another, and we had to find a software and place to put it all. We knew it was going to end before it was released to the patrons.

Gabe and I went looking at software. Flashchat was found and Gabe got that. He installed it on his site....voluntarily without being asked. You will notice that of the majority if ISRP WizOs who came over to be Magi....most have been unable to remain involved. Real life and the need for money has cut us down to a tiny few...who do this entirely voluntarily.

We don't get paid. You all have a free site to play on, with settings prepared and placed and all the work that goes into keeping something like this running done for you.

I think we are all very lucky.

As to the Tavern and it's rules...they will remain as they are written until or unless I find really good and compelling reasons to change them. If you all do not like the restricted nature of the Tavern, then you still have the Rotunda and the Grand Bazaar, or Carpe DM and Ahoy! Adventure. Play in the settings that allow your character as you wish it to be. Realize that if you are going to play in the Tavern your character must fit the character restrictions for that setting.

Siani

 

[Tyrian_Spellstealer]

Was it voted on democratically? No.
Will it be? No.
Were the rules as written objected to? No. Aside from a couple of people who were counter-pointed by other patrons, there was no objection to the rules as written.

Thats all I wanted clarified. That said, I think everyone is very thankful for what the Magi have done, I know I am. Wouldn't have it any other way.


....so.... that said - is there a difference between linking to a picture and having a disclaimer as opposed to having the picture in the description itself with a disclaimer? My assumption is that both aren't aloud (besides the case by case consideration).

 

[Magi_Siani]

I've been thinking about this for a bit. Here are some ideas I have and feedback is sought.

1) All pictures must conform to the setting restrictions for whichever setting the character is in and regardless of where they are stored.

2) Graphics may be posted as found with the following requirements: For the settings with restrictions disclaimers are noticeably made that any attributes the graphic shows that are violations of the setting rules are not present when the character is in that setting. This would be true of setting restrictions for other settings.
This is sort of like "Tavern description" or "Rotunda Description" as is often done in text forms when people have several looks to one character. Bhryn, if I may use her as an example, would be fully winged in all her glory in Sigil...but would have a separate tavern dessie for when she is there without those wings. Instead of doing it entirely in text you are showing a graphic and noting in obvious manner what bits are not present when the character is in a restricted setting.
Reading a description is the responsibility of the individual, but do note that the Magi are required to read them.

3) Links may be made to graphics stored elsewhere as they are with a note that any elements that are not allowed in a giving setting are not present when the character is in that setting. Graphics actually in the description must conform to whatever setting restrictions apply to the room the character is in.

These are the three I have come up with so far. Let's hear comments. As Trelian has noted, graphics for dessies are a new thing for us so it's going to take some time to shake things out. As was noted by another patron, it isn't always easy to come up with a graphic for your character, though graphics are purely a player choice. I haven't got a picture of Siani and it's been...oh...over 30 years. So yes, it can be hard and most artists want compensation.


Siani

 

[Magi_Trelian]

Thanks, Siani! Just to be clear, these are three -different- options and it's open for discussion and feedback which one people think would work best, though this isn't a vote. Remember we're trying to balance out being fair to the people trying hard to follow the tavern restrictions, against the cries of "lots of other people have wings, I've seen their descriptions, you're picking on me unfairly!" that comes when other people don't read or remember the disclaimers and so don't include them in their own descriptions.

 

[Jaka Blader]

My input

Well in my opinion the second option is best but my experience is if you put the text part of your dessy above the pic more people are likely to read it. With me I do a text and a pic for my restricted chars I have a few that I do need to fix which will be done but those are the chars I don't bring in enough that I remember the errors with their dessy. Also Siani how do you become a Magi? I'm online like everyday (Not always on EW though) so I might as well put my computer geekness to good use hehe.

 

[Meh]

Gabe and I went looking at software. Flashchat was found and Gabe got that. He installed it on his site....voluntarily without being asked. You will notice that of the majority if ISRP WizOs who came over to be Magi....most have been unable to remain involved. Real life and the need for money has cut us down to a tiny few...who do this entirely voluntarily.

We don't get paid. You all have a free site to play on, with settings prepared and placed and all the work that goes into keeping something like this running done for you.

I think we are all very lucky.

(edit:Something to add, NO ONE KNEW?? ONLY THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED WIZ KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP?????????? About Wiz maybe shutting down, and Im sure if the patrons knew they would have done as much as you. All the none close friends of Wizo's did not know.. So its unfair, what you said. That you did all this yourselves, when you didn't have to and that none of us has a chance of knowing.)

What is this, ya want a cookie or something, there are many free sites out there, you did this for yourself more then you did this for others, to seem the site you love alive.. There is always Charms site, WW, Dykal and I could name 8 others. Dont make it sound like we asked you for this, that abit conceeded.. And done for us? AS IF OTHERS did not ask to help, I bet you had a good turn out when you were looking for MAGI? This part of yer post is poor.


Back to something I said.

No one touched this at all, maybe it was just not noticed.. the racism.. How can you deny and ban creature, that normally walk around Oerth in populated areas that have these description controled parts? All monsterous goodly races, there are a good few that walk among humans, so how can you deny there description.. .o O ( Going to the tavern better cover up before I go inside? Though I dont have to in the streets?) who knows maybe someone can shed light on this also?

 

[amryll]

Umm this may sound stupid but which monsterous goodly races walk around in humanoid cities? i recall centaurs being mentioned but im sorry, i just cant see why a centaur would be in a city, much less a tavern. now if you are saying that it could happen i cant disagree but i dont think it comes up that often.and from what has been said the people of oerth just got done with a gigantic war with things that were not normal humaiods, so i think a bit of racism is justified really, following this logic: normal=safe, not normal=wants to eat me

 

[Akea]

erhem...
wow there buddy, talk about under-appreciation to the things people are doing for you.. I think they are running and putting in their time to this site for all of us, not just themselves.. it's a lot of work to keep people in line on these sort of websites and the least you could do is give them an inch of credit..

 

[Tharivious]

(edit:Something to add, NO ONE KNEW?? ONLY THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED WIZ KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP?????????? About Wiz maybe shutting down, and Im sure if the patrons knew they would have done as much as you. All the none close friends of Wizo's did not know.. So its unfair, what you said. That you did all this yourselves, when you didn't have to and that none of us has a chance of knowing.)

So reading the original ISRP message board section makes one a close friend of a WizO? Because that was how most people found out. And it was released publically perhaps a week after the then-WizOs themselves were informed if I remember patches of conversations correctly (for the record, yes, I do consider many of the Magi to be friends, though I have lost touch with some in recent months).

Seriously, if people that are uninvolved with the community to the point that they ignore the message boards attached to them, then should those who are highly involved be considered "privelaged"? Hardly. We were merely paying closer attention to what was going on around us. And we acted in what we felt was the best interest of the community, seeking to provide as many options as we could while maintaining the integrity of the settings and community as a whole.

As one of many people who has never been a WizO/Magi and was part of the move project, I can honestly say that we did the best that we could and involved anyone and everyone who visited the UH forums during the project. Anyone that brought a voice was heard, and the general majority led the direction of the site to what it has become. Does that put fault on anyone who wasn't involved? Of course not, but it does translate to less weight to any claims of their opinions being ignored or otherwise not valued during the move.

As for Siani's comments being "poor", I beg to differ. The ISRP is and always has been a different sort of venue from the other sites mentioned. I can't speak for Charm's site as I've never visited it, but compared to the others, ISRP is the family friendly version, and far less bogged down by excessive violence, mature themes, and general full-force insanity. The Magi have done a fine job of maintaining that spirit in spite of the move away from the corporate sponsor, and should be commended for keeping a decent alternative to the less-restrained options.

No one touched this at all, maybe it was just not noticed.. the racism.. How can you deny and ban creature, that normally walk around Oerth in populated areas that have these description controled parts? All monsterous goodly races, there are a good few that walk among humans, so how can you deny there description.. .o O ( Going to the tavern better cover up before I go inside? Though I dont have to in the streets?) who knows maybe someone can shed light on this also?

I touched on it, and quite happily refuted it. It's strictly in-character based, and when characters would see the world this way, then it is only healthy to maintain suspension of disbelief, a key component in any setting's operation. Claiming racism from an out of character perspective without rationalizing based on the mindset of humans and their closest allies from that time period, in a low-magic setting, where the supernatural is generally looked at with concern by the common folk... doesn't work. To assume that all human settlements will be so ready to just accept that some monstrous races are good aligned is metagaming, pure and simple, and giving humans with a medieval mindset too much credit.

Elves, dwarves, and the small folk are all anthrocentric and look human enough to not be of worry to the natives of the town by sight, even though many may be looked upon with general awe or interest. Monstrous races, on the other hand, often look more than different enough to make superstitious simple-folk nervous, and nervous villagers leads to a watchful and narrow-minded militia.

Think about it, if someone tried telling you that those large creatures with the body of a horse and the torso of a human was a nice guy, and you saw one approaching with a bow and arrow or sword on its person, would you believe it without question?

 

[Thanriyon]

This thread, is, rapidly turning rediculous...

Greyhawk is a tight setting. You only have to look at what the RPGA allows and disallows in the Living Greyhawk campaign to understand that.
I'm forever hearing, and reading complaints about the 'restrictions' on the setting, or how this is 'unfair' and now, apparantly, 'racist' .
Have you bothered to learn the setting? Spend any of your time reading up on Oerth, it's history, and traditions? There's multitudes of web sites, and published materials available you know.
The Flanaess ( That portion of Oerth where the Domain of Greyhawk is located ) is still recovering from a series of devastating wars.
To the South of the Domain is the Pomarj, an Empire of Humanoids that invaded north into the Domain - Humanoids, and anything remotely non-human/non-demi-human is treated with distrust at best, or outright hostility. In some of the frontier towns, such as Narwell, there have been incidents of Half-orcs, and ugly humanoids lynched by mobs for fear that they were spies for the Pomarj.

Head north and you have the Empire of Iuz, which has inflicted quite a bit of damage on the Northern kingdoms, and the Domain. Here we have another band of mainly evil humans, andHumanoids, augemented by Fiends, and led by a Demi-God. Beginning to see why the Domain's a bit paranoid, hmm?

Head East, and there's the remnants of the Great Kingdom - Aerdy, and Ahlissa.. they've got a tradition of employing non-human, and planar nasties as troops..

So yes, the Domain is perhaps a bit xenophobic, and frankly, who can blame them? They don't see Orc, Goblin, Drow, Fiend, Lizard Man, Celestial - They see, Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, and trouble, and that's how they respond - kill first, ask questions later.
That's how the Domain is, and frankly, I like the reality of how the Tavern rules reflect the setting.

No one is forcing you to play in the Tavern, but the rules are there, and you should respect them, whether you like them or not, or go elsewhere.


Next we have complaints about the setting up of the site? We had barely what, six weeks notice from WoTc as I recall. It's thanks to the hard work of people like Gabriel, Siani, Trelian, and others that we had a site to go to at all.
Charm's site didn't even exist then, and other than Dykal, which some of us had issues with, there weren't any other places that we knew of.
Patrons worked with the Wizo's to help with the transition. Advice was asked, and listened to, and settings, and rules were implemented.
Not everyone likes the rules, and that's to be expected. There's almost no such thing as unanimous agreement in real life, so why expect it here?
Those of us that were there, when Wizard's were closed, and who knew how hard people were working to keep the community intact appreciate it greatly, so, yes, I think Siani, Gabriel, and the others deserve a Cookie. *hands them one*

Some of us like the way things are now - we have setting restrictions, but far more freedom to roleplay than we ever had in Wizards.

Paraphrased for those of limited patience -
- If you don't bother to learn the setting, don't complain about the setting rules.
- If you don't like the setting restrictions, play in a different setting.
- If you don't like the fact that the majority of the people do like the settings, don't start rediculous claims like 'Racism' or 'Unfair' or veil it under complaints about 'Descriptions'.
- Accept the simple fact that there is more to a setting than the DMG and PHB.
- Respect the fact that the Magi are unpaid volunteers.

That's from the Thannic perspective, enjoy. K thx bye!