D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

[Chaosmancer]

If you don't consider the MM that says that the stat block is the default evidence, there's nothing more to talk about.

Enjoy your home brew. We're done.

I've explained why that statblock is not solid evidence.

You've chosen to ignore it, that isn't on me.

 

[Flamestrike]

Mass Murder of whom?

I could see a Druid being a little miffed if you change them from LG to LE just because they cast Storm of Vengeance on an enemy army. That is mass murder after all.

Erm...no it's not.

Not sure what your knowledge of the Law is, but if an Army of people are attacking you or someone else, you're perfectly entitled to respond with force (even lethal force) in self defence, and it is not Murder.

Or how about when the Paladin fights through 60 GOO cultists to stop a ritual that the cult leader was performing to gain more power. Still mass murder.

Well maybe. If he was just slaughtering them needlessly. But if he as trying to stop the cult leader, and the cultists drew on him, also not murder.

I'm using the term murder here. Not violence in general, or even killing in general. Murder.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Erm...no it's not.

Not sure what your knowledge of the Law is, but if an Army of people are attacking you or someone else, you're perfectly entitled to respond with force (even lethal force) in self defence, and it is not Murder.



Well maybe. If he was just slaughtering them needlessly. But if he as trying to stop the cult leader, and the cultists drew on him, also not murder.

I'm using the term murder here. Not violence in general, or even killing in general. Murder.

So, the context of the action matters.

It isn't murder if you are defending yourself. Even if you break into someone else's home with weapons drawn.

After all, the paladin is right to defend himself if the cultists drew on him.

The point here isn't to grind down into the nitty gritty details of what is or isn't, the point is that in pretty much every case, in pretty much every action, the context of what is going on matters for whether it is good or evil.

There is only 1 category of crime I can say with absolute certainty is always evil. IRL, there is only one category that I have found that I have never been able to think of a reasonable context.

I apply this same thought process to my games. If we can justify kicking in a door, weapons drawn, and killing the people who attack us, even though we are wandering mercs with no legal authority, then the game already has a very lax sense of what is good and what is evil. Because it has to, it has to matter that we are the good guys working to stop the bad guys from doing bad things.

And once you start saying that the context doesn't matter, that the act is evil no matter the context, then you need to have solid evidence to support that. And, "because it just is" doesn't cut it.

 

[Flamestrike]

So, the context of the action matters.

It isn't murder if you are defending yourself.

Yeah. Murder is different from killing. Murder is evil. Killing in self defence or the defence of others is morally neutral. Self sacrifice in the defence of others is morally good.

The point here isn't to grind down into the nitty gritty details of what is or isn't, the point is that in pretty much every case, in pretty much every action, the context of what is going on matters for whether it is good or evil.

No it doesnt matter. If you murder a baby to save a million other lives, you're still doing an evil act. Good people dont commit murder. Murder - not killing. Murder.

I apply this same thought process to my games. If we can justify kicking in a door, weapons drawn, and killing the people who attack us, even though we are wandering mercs with no legal authority, then the game already has a very lax sense of what is good and what is evil.

If you kick in someones door with weapons drawn and slay the people inside (who are only defending themselves from you, and otherwise pose neither you nor anyone else any reasonable threat) you're evil.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah. Murder is different from killing. Murder is evil. Killing in self defence or the defence of others is morally neutral. Self sacrifice in the defence of others is morally good.

Right, so execution is evil? Any government that executes prisoners is evil?

You seem to be missing the point about the big picture here.

No it doesnt matter. If you murder a baby to save a million other lives, you're still doing an evil act. Good people dont commit murder. Murder - not killing. Murder.

Killing a man about to hit the nuke button is neutral, because you are saving lives.

Killing the child who will turn into a nuke due to his bloodline and kill everyone is evil, because it is murder and murder is always evil.

Again, I think you are missing the point about context.

Let us say you shoot a cannon at a pirate ship, protecting yourselves and the people of your ship. But, while it sank, it killed twice as many prisoners as there were pirates. Did you commit murder? Was the act evil? Does it matter whether or not you knew beforehand about the prisoners? If you didn't know is it still evil?

If you kick in someones door with weapons drawn and slay the people inside (who are only defending themselves from you, and otherwise pose neither you nor anyone else any reasonable threat) you're evil.

So, again, in bold this time CONTEXT MATTERS

I keep repeating it, you keep saying that I'm wrong. But clearly it matters if you need to clarify that to be evil, the people can't pose a reasonable threat to you or other people. Because if they do, your actions are not evil.

 

[FarBeyondC]

I know it's an old cliche, but this mess happened to me. I was all set to go with a necromancer. My guy was raising dead, the campaign was running smoothly, and then a buddy joined up at level 6. He wanted to roll a paladin.

What's the best way to make the two play nice in the same party? Is there a mechanical solution to the problem? Alternatively, how can I circumnavigate his ire?

I guess the first question would be, is the type of paladin your buddy is rolling up the type that would have a problem with your dead raising necromancer?

Because if not, is there even a problem here?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I guess the first question would be, is the type of paladin your buddy is rolling up the type that would have a problem with your dead raising necromancer?

Because if not, is there even a problem here?

Heh, that part of the discussion is long dead my friend.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right, so execution is evil?

Yes.

Killing a man about to hit the nuke button is neutral, because you are saving lives.

Yes.

Killing the child who will turn into a nuke due to his bloodline and kill everyone is evil, because it is murder and murder is always evil.

Yes.

Let us say you shoot a cannon at a pirate ship, protecting yourselves and the people of your ship. But, while it sank, it killed twice as many prisoners as there were pirates. Did you commit murder? Was the act evil? Does it matter whether or not you knew beforehand about the prisoners? If you didn't know is it still evil?

If you're under attack from pirates, and no other option reasonably presents itself to you other than shooting back to protect yourself, it's not murder. You shooting back isnt evil, but it sure as hell isnt good either.

I keep repeating it, you keep saying that I'm wrong. But clearly it matters if you need to clarify that to be evil, the people can't pose a reasonable threat to you or other people. Because if they do, your actions are not evil.

No, I'm explaining to you the difference between murder, and killing.

Killing in 5E is not expressly evil. LG Paladins carry (and are trained with) swords for a reason. Murder (as defined in whatever criminal code exists in the country in which you live) is evil on the other hand.

As is say... animating the dead with Necromancy magic. That is also (in 5E) called out as being expressly evil.

 

[FarBeyondC]

Heh, that part of the discussion is long dead my friend.

A shame, because the undying tangent that's taken over in its place is a foul mockery of the life that could have been.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, I'm explaining to you the difference between murder, and killing.

Killing in 5E is not expressly evil. LG Paladins carry (and are trained with) swords for a reason. Murder (as defined in whatever criminal code exists in the country in which you live) is evil on the other hand.

As is say... animating the dead with Necromancy magic. That is also (in 5E) called out as being expressly evil.

So, murder needs to be defined by the criminal laws of the country. So, if the criminal code doesn't call it murder, is it still murder?

I ask, because earlier in this thread, you were talking about the fact that good and evil is expressed as an absolute force by the dieties. Now, we have murder, as defined by a government, being evil. But, governments can change definitions. So, then, are simply talking about breaking the laws as being evil? But, execution, which is government sanctioned murder is evil, so does murder not need to be defined by the government then?

I mean, you seem to change the definition of good and evil based on the age of the person you are killing, because killing a man to save millions of lives is neutral, but killing a child to save millions of lives is evil. So, you seem to be very reactionary here.

Murdering people as a consequence of defending yourself, because they just happened to be in the way as you sunk a pirate ship isn't evil, I guess unless they were children, but again, you don't know who is one that pirate ship. But sinking it isn't evil regardless.


But, you know what, this is leading into just an endless morass of you telling me something is evil, me asking clarifying questions that hint that maybe it isn't evil, and you just doubling down. I mean, look at this. We've got various types of murder here, and some are evil and some are neutral, and none of them are even considering other types of killing that could occur.

But, you want to put Animate Dead on a pedestal, say there is only one way to do it, and that way is evil. But you can't even get a single definition of murder that is unambigiously evil, because as soon as it is "justified" in defending other lives, it isn't murder, it is killing, and that is different. But even to defend lives, Animate Dead is evil. Because reasons. Reasons that I have gone over repeatedly to point out the holes in.

So lets just quit already. Since I really don't want to go another 24 hours of "it is evil because it is evil."