A Paladin Problematic

[Prestidigitalis]

When I peruse feats and powers for my Swordmage, I periodically have to remind myself that just because my Aegis includes a Mark does NOT mean that all marked creatures are subject to my Aegis. I suspect that there is a similar confusion at work here: Divine Sanction vs. Divine Challenge is probably the culprit.

 

[Felon]

Bradaman's weapon can do it -- it lets you challenge two targets at a time.

Needless to say, he's got one of those. Stupidly good weapon.

I'll have to double-check on the breath weapon. Keep it coming.

 

[Felon]

I think we just found the culprit. Applying divine challenge riders (including hospitaler benefits) to multiple divine sanction creatures would lead to lots of frustrating situations.

Five gets you ten that within a year we'll see a feat or item in Dragon Mag that will allow a pally to do exactly this.

Correcting this alone should clear a lot up, if the DM just attacks the paladin with monster that is divine challenged (not sanctioned).

This is easy enough for the pally to manage. There's a fighter in the party, so pally just marks and moves away, let's the fighter take the heat. Monster tries to go after pally, fighter stops its movement with AoO.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Monster tries to go after pally, fighter stops its movement with AoO.

Does the monster do the 'move, fighter stops me with AoO, charge' option? If the AoO misses the monster gets to move, if he stops with the AoO it has used up the AoO and he can then freely move or charge attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

Does the monster do the 'move, fighter stops me with AoO, charge' option? If the AoO misses the monster gets to move, if he stops with the AoO it has used up the AoO and he can then freely move or charge attack.

Because using two actions and taking a hit to accomplish one is good action economy.

Just sayin, this is still in the fighter's favor.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Sure, but it isn't the absolute show stopper that it is sometimes thought to be; that's all I'm saying.

Cheers

 

[sigfile]

Needless to say, he's got one of those. Stupidly good weapon..

UGH. Bradaman's Weapon received a silly-good upgrade when Divine Challenge was revamped for Essentials. As-was, if the paladin didn't engage both targets, he couldn't re-Challenge anyone for another turn. With that restriction now lifted, Bradaman's Weapon is crazy-potent.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hospitalers are fairly nasty, but there are various ways around the problem that Epic is amply equipped to provide. Large amounts of aura damage, ongoing damage, non-damaging effects, powers that do any kind of auto-damage in whatever situation, etc.

There are going to be some encounters where the paladin will work exceedingly well, mostly against tough solos. There will be others that he'll have marginal impact on. Obviously the player is smart and knows how to optimize the character. Basically ANY optimized Epic PC can be pretty scary. Tell the same player to make an optimized Warden for instance and just WEEP at how utterly unkillable the character will be at 23rd level. Pretty much any class can get like that. The thing is the monsters can get ridiculous as well.

The real issue is if the character is so much better optimized than the rest of the party that he's driving the DM into an arms race where none of the other characters ever gets to play first fiddle. In that case the answer is asking him to tone it down.

Note also that while Essentials may have made Bradaman's Weapon extra potent it also makes it a RARE item. If a paladin HAS one, the DM gave it to him. This is one of the major points of the rarity system is preventing this kind of extreme optimization from getting out of hand by just not handing the player every perfect item for his character.

 

[Davachido]

The pally seems to have ways to challenge multiple creatures. He's got some feat that lets him challenge everyone in the area of his breath weapon, for instance (didn't mention he was a dragonborn, did I?).


Not familiar with the critter, but from what I saw, the VD tosses out an area attack and has some sort of poison damage aura that it can expand into a close burst attack. I guess neither are at-will, so the claws are what's left over. And the paladin's a lot harder to hit.

As others have said the breath weapon for the dragonborn is only sanction so none of the rider's from hospitaler work with it.

With the VD it has 2 attacks that don't require attack rolls at all that don't trigger the mark regardless and has a constant growing aura then explosion that is a close burst 5 so its dead easy to negate all the healing the paladin is doing. Then he just uses his normal attacks against the paladin while doing loads of aura/zone damage that the paladin can't do anything about.

That's only the example with a VD. There are other monsters that can slow him down, like a gibbering orb for example. Which can daze the paladin and everyone else for the matter constantly then just send the paladin off to the far realm if he gets the right eye beam. Heck get a lot of small monsters with abilities to shed marks, I mean the player's can use powers to get rid of marks, why not monsters?

If the DMing is up for altering monsters slightly you can beef up a Gray dragon by making it have threating reach then just immoblize people as the come in and turn them all to stone. With plenty of burst attacks of course.

 

[Felon]

As others have said the breath weapon for the dragonborn is only sanction so none of the rider's from hospitaler work with it.

With the VD it has 2 attacks that don't require attack rolls at all that don't trigger the mark regardless and has a constant growing aura then explosion that is a close burst 5 so its dead easy to negate all the healing the paladin is doing. Then he just uses his normal attacks against the paladin while doing loads of aura/zone damage that the paladin can't do anything about.

I think the VD's big problem is the same that my sorcerer has: typed damage. His aura, zone, and burst are mitigated too easily. Those claws peel off fire resistance, which is neat, but then we're back to the divine challenge saving the day.

Funny thing is, the VD came in at the end of a battle where we'd already used up all of our encounters. I'm not sure if that was a good idea for it, because we cut loose with a daily each and pretty much ruined its day quickly. Don't think it had a round where it wasn't dazed. The pally is just a contributor to the monsters' humiliation, but an excess of free, surgeless has a way of making combat seem pointless, as damage is inflicted and then immediately negated.