A Paladin Problematic

[keterys]

Looking at some basic math for a moment - I typically aim for, in a mild vacuum of player abilities - each monster to deal about 2 surges worth of damage on average. So, yes, that monster who didn't get a chance to act cause he got focused in the first round did 0, but hopefully that very last guy makes up the difference. Then I'm okay with player abilities picking up some steam to bring that down to maybe 1 each...

So, looking at that paladin, that means the monsters need to be able to do at least 300 damage (5 surges at 60 per) and should be closer to 5-600 expected (ie, before some cool daily is pulled out, cause it's epic, the party has 30 cool dailies, they're _always_ pulled out) at the starting gate. Some of the recent monsters are good for this. The old ones, not so much, and if the party has lots of resistances and temp regeneration the bar may need to be stepped up. It does sound like the fighter is reasonably on par with the paladin (in a different way), so I'd lean towards thinking the threats should be bumped up if it's not just one person who is far more optimal than the party.

Can you say what the critters have been on some example fights?

 

[Felon]

We're currently doing the DM's intriguing re-imagining of the Temple of Elemental Evil. To reiterate for clarity's sake, we only hit 25 after the last session, so Discipline the Unruly wasn't on the table yet.

What did we fight? Lemme see what I can recall...

Session's first encounter (but the fifth for that day):
Death Titan
Death Giants x2
Some kind of drow whirling dervish
Some kind of mage with necrotic rays, necrotic touch, and a jumped-up web spell

Second encounter was light work, and didn't last a full round due to a trio of crits from the strikers:
Three large Gargoyles with a nasty flyby attack

We rope-tricked our way into an extended rest (though I suppose we didn't really need to) and had a third encounter:
Six Xorn minions
An earth mage of some kind, with a stony grasp attack that restrains
Two Large Elementals with some kind of stomp attack that would have been impressive if it ever hit. Must've been from Monster Vault, because they had the new vulnerability paradigm, where instead of extra damage, thunder attacks reduced their defenses for a round.

 

[Aegeri]

I can begin to see the problem here, because the lack of encounters can really add up at epic. No epic game survives PCs being allowed to freely rest every 2-3 encounters, as this encourages the "Dump and run" aspect. Ideally by epic, extended rests should be harder and take longer between them: Due to the pressing time.

For him, I would emphasize this with the portals about to be opened and that, taking extended rests begins to rapidly increase ELs. Not even the dump and run epic party faces a EL9 of MM3 creatures and gets through it without being mauled - if not an outright TPK. But really the problem here is the pace of the game and allowing easy resting frequently. I can now see why daily powers are becoming such an issue: They're basically allowed like encounter powers.

 

[Felon]

I can begin to see the problem here, because the lack of encounters can really add up at epic. No epic game survives PCs being allowed to freely rest every 2-3 encounters, as this encourages the "Dump and run" aspect.

Like I said, the first encounter for that session was actually the fifth for that day, so we had six before resting. And we still hadn't dumped all our daily attacks. IIRC, we had a player that was hot to a disenchant/enchant transaction, so we figured we might as well break camp.

If dailies were dumped early, it would actually help the DM in the sense that his BBEG capstone encounteres that occur later in the day wouldn't be anticlimaxed the way they currently are. It's hoarding them for the perfect hosejob that makes for deep hurting.

 

[Aegeri]

Oh sorry, I completely misread your post. I guess I would just have to see or hear from the DM as to his perspective. Then again, in all this I can't remember if I actually asked you: Is your DM satisfied and having fun?

I mean, despite some of my more enthusiastic posts on this forum about horrible optimal murder from monsters, in reality all I care about [as a DM] is a good challenge. I don't want to kill my party and leave them horribly murdered, I just want the encounters to be unique, challenging and fun! If your DM is having fun and isn't finding making the games a huge chore (which can happen with epic tier games), then it's not really a problem.

Have you actually asked him if he's finding it a big problem?

 

[keterys]

Well, they did do six encounters before resting, so that's not too bad.

The second encounter was probably three rocktempest gargoyles - who have fairly low hp, but can make up for it with their lurk mechanic, flybying for massive damage every other round. That's not too bad. I'd expect them to, on average, live to flyby AP double claw, 2nd round stoneform, 3rd round flyby in a theoretical world... even the first round though is 3 attacks vs Fort for 4d8+22, 2 attacks vs AC for 2d8+16+ongoing 15 (plus daze if both hit). Though they might have had trouble hitting your fighter at a minimum, but the paladin shoulda been viable to hit.

Curious, are you guys stacking both the new essentials +FRW feats with the old +FRW feats to get +8? I mean, if your fighter has _all_ over 40 FRWs that's pretty impressive.

The giant fight, lessee... Death Titans and Giants are MM1. The giants look like they're doing about half the effective damage they should be, so yeah, that might have been on the low side. The Drow Exalted Consort might be the dervish and isn't too bad looking. Less sure on the mage, but maybe a reflavored Aspect of Vecna. Its web is very solid, but damage overall is low.

Still, they don't sound like total pushover fights. Depending on how much releveling he's doing, you guys might have the benefit of too high a defense disparity. Like, if he's using a level 23 monster against your group with a +28 vs AC and your defenders are AC 46, well that's problematic for focus-firing. Also, the encounters are both pretty thoroughly nerfed by the blinding power so your anticipation may not be inappropriate.

The last elementals actually do good damage and are from MM3.

Flattening Stomp Recharge when first bloodied
Attack: Melee 2 (one creature); +25 vs. Reflex
Hit: 5d8 + 20 damage.

But, yeah, melee only, AC primary attack, Reflex secondary attack, base level 22 (so again, depends how much they're up-leveled if at all).

 

[Felon]

Well, they did do six encounters before resting, so that's not too bad.

The second encounter was probably three rocktempest gargoyles - who have fairly low hp, but can make up for it with their lurk mechanic, flybying for massive damage every other round. That's not too bad. I'd expect them to, on average, live to flyby AP double claw, 2nd round stoneform, 3rd round flyby in a theoretical world... even the first round though is 3 attacks vs Fort for 4d8+22, 2 attacks vs AC for 2d8+16+ongoing 15 (plus daze if both hit). Though they might have had trouble hitting your fighter at a minimum, but the paladin shoulda been viable to hit.

Curious, are you guys stacking both the new essentials +FRW feats with the old +FRW feats to get +8? I mean, if your fighter has _all_ over 40 FRWs that's pretty impressive.

The giant fight, lessee... Death Titans and Giants are MM1. The giants look like they're doing about half the effective damage they should be, so yeah, that might have been on the low side. The Drow Exalted Consort might be the dervish and isn't too bad looking. Less sure on the mage, but maybe a reflavored Aspect of Vecna. Its web is very solid, but damage overall is low.

Still, they don't sound like total pushover fights. Depending on how much releveling he's doing, you guys might have the benefit of too high a defense disparity. Like, if he's using a level 23 monster against your group with a +28 vs AC and your defenders are AC 46, well that's problematic for focus-firing. Also, the encounters are both pretty thoroughly nerfed by the blinding power so your anticipation may not be inappropriate.

The last elementals actually do good damage and are from MM3.

Flattening Stomp Recharge when first bloodied
Attack: Melee 2 (one creature); +25 vs. Reflex
Hit: 5d8 + 20 damage.

But, yeah, melee only, AC primary attack, Reflex secondary attack, base level 22 (so again, depends how much they're up-leveled if at all).

Kudos are definitely in order for your skill at identifying monsters solely by vague description. The only thing you might've missed was the necro mage, which was most likely a modified drow arachnomacner.

The defenses that other players are piling on are Improved Defenses are Epic Fort, Reflex, and Will (untyped bonuses). Four feats nets ya +7 to every NAD.

The death giants and titan were modified to deal revised damage. They wasted time trying to pile on the fighter though, who ran up and pulled them all around him. Then they broke off to do what the DM usually tries to do, which is gank the rogue with the much-more-hittable AC. This is why I'm so confident that the defenders are safe as houses, because the critters can't even squash the rogue proper.

The DM likes melee monsters, and he doesn't like doing extensive end-runs around the party's strong suits. Basically, he's a softballer, and for some reason some players have gotten very hardball, particularly the pally player.

 

[Aegeri]

Sounds like a problem with the monster composition to be honest. Melee monsters are not really what you want to be using a lot in epic. Artillery and controllers become much more important: Especially to avoid burst and blast powers.

 

[Felon]

Sounds like a problem with the monster composition to be honest. Melee monsters are not really what you want to be using a lot in epic. Artillery and controllers become much more important: Especially to avoid burst and blast powers.

Well, if you're saying monster compositon should steer away from melee encounters, that's more akin to saying the problem is with epic levels.

The dichotomy that seem to be espoused is that you can challenge the player or you can fight them on their terms. Pick one.

 

[Aegeri]

Well, if you're saying monster compositon should steer away from melee encounters, that's more akin to saying the problem is with epic levels.

The dichotomy that seem to be espoused is that you can challenge the player or you can fight them on their terms. Pick one.

That is exactly true. You should actually DM epic next, because you basically get the entire problem (or concept, depending on your point of view). TBH, I would use a melee monster encounter just to reinforce the party is powerful and give them (you?) something that really fits into the tactics/abilities.

Other times it's time to fight the horrible area burst monsters of doom who are flying around on hovering disks at range 10-15 squares away, which move at the beginning of each of their own turns as a free action. Who drop a lot of area bursts that leave burning zones.

It's just easier to do this and at a lower EL because the monsters damage is much better