A Paladin Question

[evilbob]

so? I say i want to kill ALL my players but do you see it happening?

Wow. This is slightly off-topic and I sincerely don’t mean to offend anyone, but I have to say something here. I’ve read through this whole thread and the more I see, the more I have disliked what I read. Not about the Paladin question, or the moral implications, but about the justifications for some of these situations. I have read lots of stories about different DMs, different DMing styles, and heard lots of things about people who run games and the sort of personalities some people have and the traits people show. I’ve run a few games in my life as well, so I’m not just speaking abstractly here. However, I must say that I believe all DMs that actively seek the death of their players – not just allow them to happen, but honestly try to set up PvP situations or lead players to places they couldn’t possibly survive – are truly bad DMs. I know I would never run my games that way or choose to play under a DM who suffered from such a god complex, and I believe DMs who act that way make the world of role-playing less fun for people everywhere.

I know I can’t be alone on this, either; we’ve all played games under crappy DMs. I’ve seen my share of people who are new to role-playing get turned off and never try again due to the bungling of bad DMs. Some people just aren’t good at running games because they can’t tell stories; others can’t understand complex rules, and still others just have no imagination. But the worst DMs are those who only DM because they could not stand to be players. They always have to be in control and enforce their whims on others, simply due to the demands of their own personalities. The love to manipulate and control, and play their games as if it were “me against them” – instead of “me telling a story they interact with (and sometimes control).” DMing is not about trying to find new and interesting ways to destroy other people’s fun. It’s about leading others to having fun, and watching as they discover new things. If the DM is the only person having fun, or the person having the most fun, then something is wrong and the DM should be replaced.

The worst DMs make gaming a bad experience, and that’s just not what gaming is all about. And occasionally – albeit rarely – they come to a forum and publicly belittle their players by taking their posts and condescendingly attacking and refuting each statement one by one.

 

[reapersaurus]

Leopold - assuming you're the DM, I want to point out 2 things:

1) Unless you just enjoy putting players thru a alignment debate, and making them work hard for an imagined-neat scenario, than it would take only 3 rounds to answer your "conundrum", once ANY paladin involved would use Detect Evil and have the answer given to him based on what was revealed.

I must have missed where you explained exactly WHY Detect Evil is not the answer in this case.

2) You said, and I quote:

bull and more bull. You can your just giving up

once the Paladin player gave you his feelings on the matter.

STOP RIGHT NOW, Leopold.

You are obviously (IMO) pushing a new paladin player into areas he is not comfortable in going.

This is further cemented by how much you typed in response to his feelings.
YOU are the one that's pushing the adventure this direction (probably because you personally want to have kewl Paladin morality roleplay. That's a great idea and all, but you have to choose the right time and group to do that scenario).

It takes all members of tyhe group to be mature enough, knowledgable enough, and skilled enough to pull off what you are trying.

I'd sugggest that you take a long look at your group and determine if it's smart to push them thru this scenario, after the paladin player has already gotten across to you that he is frustrated, unsure, distrustful, and most of all, not having fun with your forced-upon-him scenario.

To sum up: listen to your players.
Unless you are SO sure that pushing them thru it will make them better roleplayers, and be a good thing for your group, than back off.

 

[reapersaurus]

The worst DMs make gaming a bad experience, and that’s just not what gaming is all about. And occasionally – albeit rarely – they come to a forum and publicly belittle their players by taking their posts and condescendingly attacking and refuting each statement one by one.

wow.
we both noticed the same thing at about the same time.
Leopold - you should not take this clarity lightly.
It is not often that a person gets this opportunity to analyze their actions from the viewpoint of others so clearly.

Don't waste this opportunity, and at least try to check yourself to confirm that this is the best course of action for your group.

I'd hate to see good Paladin morality play be used improperly and be the cause of bad blood or a fractured party, or lessened fun for the gaming group.

 

[Sunfist]

I have to agree with Evilbob. I am a DM running a campaign right now and I personally can't stand the type of DMs who try to kill off the players. Yes, players can die, but that should never be the purpose of DMing. Killing players is not the DMs job in the same way that failing students is not a professor's job. Yes, students can fail, but that's not why the professor is there. It's the same with DMing. You are there to make sure that the players have a great time. That is the sole reason you are there.

Heck, it even says this in the DM Guide.

Sunfist

 

[kigmatzomat]

Incorrect. You overlooked the section on Paladin "Associates" on PHB p. 43: "... a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters." That's the rule.

I didn't overlook it; I was at work and pulled the text from the SRD, like I originally said. That text doesn't exist in the SRD.

 

[Crimslain]

I will say 2 things here, one, Leopold is a great DM, he is fun and has alot of great ideas and lets the PC's imagination run wild, he isnt out to kill off PC's, I know he enjoys it a little when we do something dumb and all, but I dont think he out right trys to kill us off and second, I agree with the last few posts, you honestly have put me in a situation that I am VERY uncomfortable being in. Ya its gonna take away the fun for me somewhat, and yes it might make me a better roleplayer, but I can think of better situations to let the roleplaying spirit come out in people, over all your one of the best DM's Ive played with, very comparable to John, maybe even better. I know you dont want your sessions to go without any snags, and thats fine, it takes us away from the hack and slash which is good, but my personal opinion, which Im sure you want either way, is that there are better ways to bring the roleplaying spirit out in people, without causing friction in the party. Ive made my decision about what will be done on my behalf, it will all be decided by how chip answers my questions..... Enough said, I repeat you are a great DM and Ill let no one I know dispute it.

 

[chip079]

hello everyone acused "EVIL BADGUY" here aka Vallan Durinhert (dwarf fighter/ironbound)... i was just happily reading along, and you are all giving great advice for our new paladin to follow...i would just like to point out a few things.
1) Durinheart has never commited an "evil" act in fact the only time he came close to doing so was a coup'e de grace on a kua toan enemy (not evil, part of battle) there is also some backstory reguarding Durinheart and kua toa.
2) Durinheart has routinely done what is best for the party with regaurd to funds, items, etc, and by playing the combat role i desinged him to play...standing in the middle of combat laughing as enymeys attemt to hit him to no avail (very high AC) while the casters obliterate them from afar.
3) there is i believe 1 possibly 2 pc's and an npc who may know the truth to the is he evil question, and non of them are the paladin in question (granted this is out of game knowledge and i will countinue to play as i have without knowing) since this "Evil Transformation" ahh!!!!! run!!! Durinheart has not treaded any party member differently in game including those pesky paladins...
4) yes it is true that i may have said some things out of game that could send up flags, but if you had a room of people who thought that you were evil you wouldnt play with them? not even a little....yeah rite!!!
5) i also believed that what was said out of game would remain there, i know the people i play with are more than capable of keeping what is known in game seperate from what is known out of game
6) out of game knowledge is precisely that out of game...existing out of the game...it has no purpose in the game...
7) if playing with johnathan has taught me anything (troy this is for you) assumtions will ussually lead to the death of one or possibly more pc's, and there are many assumptions present in this thread
8) our DM in question, is one of the best i have ever experienced, if there isnt any mortal danger in the campain why would we play? if you know you are always goin to win where's the fun? true PC death happens in this campain (troy and myself know this first hand) but only through the mistakes of the players...every PC death has been from poor tactics and yes in johnathans game poor tactics WILL KILL YOU! are our encounters difficult? YES. impossible? NO. they require planning and tactics without them we would all surely perish quikly. so while some of say horrible DM i say excelent.
if there are any dirrect questions for the "EVIL BADGUY" please ask... i will try to shed light where i can without giving away any secrets....

 

[Darklone]

1) Durinheart has never commited an "evil" act in fact the only time he came close to doing so was a coup'e de grace on a kua toan enemy (not evil, part of battle) there is also some backstory reguarding Durinheart and kua toa.

Since when is CDG evil? Player chars kill hordes of monsters in battles but it's suddenly evil (in a D&D sense) when they kill them for sure?

Durinheart has not treaded any party member differently in game including those pesky paladins...

Since he looks now like he looks that's not necessary.

6) out of game knowledge is precisely that out of game...existing out of the game...it has no purpose in the game...

What about the detect evil thingy?

if there are any dirrect questions for the "EVIL BADGUY" please ask... i will try to shed light where i can without giving away any secrets....

Yeah.... was this necessary ?

 

[Enkhidu]

if there are any dirrect questions for the "EVIL BADGUY" please ask... i will try to shed light where i can without giving away any secrets....

Hi there!

Here's a metagame question for you: why did you decide to come out OOC and say you've "turned to the darkside?" I know that I personally find it more fun to keep things like that to myself OOC - it makes it that much more fun to see the looks on the other player's faces when I finally come clean IC, because then they have no idea of what's going on.

 

[Cygnus]

Now this is not true at all. I don't just off hand make the DC low for this. I would make it very high indeed. Why you say? Because we have here a paladin of a god of battle. He knows how to fight the enemy, how to use his godly powers to smite and crush the followers of evil, how to champion his god onward and upward etc. nowhere do i hear about this PC in question of anything about demons, devils, or infernals. I would make this instead a knowledge (infernal) check and set the DC medium to make him know if there was such as case and if so, the frequency of said event if any.

1. The champion of a Good deity, who is opposed to evil things, would be one who champions the battle against evil, not just the things that evil npc's do.

2. The Knowledge religion skill is there for the taking. If your paladin didn't take it, that is up to him, but there are three members of a party who should have a tremendous amount of Religious Knowledge: 1. Cleric, 2. Paladin, and 3. Monk (I would posit that order). And, honestly what religious text (claiming the existence of a deity) doesn't drone on about demons and devils (fiendish types).

but where does it say I ALWAYS have to make a fiend evil. Remember fiends can be nothing more than fallen celestials, some may repent but still not far enough to earn their 'wings' back. You can be fiendish but not ALWAYS be evil, but i would make that few, far between, and one in a million. To me that would be like a paladin drow, sure they may have been one, but noone among the inner families wants to EVEN mention such a thing...

SRD and MM I in the templates section. At the top the entries just state Non-good and any but at the bottom of the entries where the resultant creature qualities are listed they clearly state "Alignment: Always Evil (any)."