A Paladin Question

[Leopold]

sigh....we give up so easily...

I agree with Leopold to most extents, but even Leopold knows what the 1?2 fiend in question has threatened after one of the sessiosn. He said I quote, one of his main golas will be to turn me into a BLACKGUARD. So technically it was out of character, but I still know he wants to turn me to the darkside.

so? I say i want to kill ALL my players but do you see it happening? SomeHOW y'all manage to come out alive by working together after such exterme circumstances. I say that out of game and in game. Also the player who played the cleric said he wanted to kill the PC in question out of game, do you honestly think he's going to do it? No...Regard it all as bravado, so be it. Don't drag out of game into game.

I look forward to playing because I have fun, now I cant really have fun, because not only am I kinda new to playing a paladin

bull and more bull. You can your just giving up. All throughout this whole thing many people have posted possible ways to have fun and be your PC. You CAN do it, you have all the tools you've had all along, you don't need anything more that what you have to solve this problem. A touch of common sense and some roleplaying and you'll have your answer.

, I have to walk a fine line so I dont lose my abilities,

true, never said any different.

but I also have to watch over an old "friend"

no he's your old boss. I don't think friendship has been firmly accepted by both parties. I spoke to the other PC in question and he agreed on that point. And nothing says you HAVE to watch over him. Detect and smite, run away, talk to him, commune with your god, put on a chicken suit, you have many options to explore with your imagination and ingenuity that i know you have be your boundries.

now that I know looks like something fiendish from when I saw something very similar in a previous battle and would have attacked on site had I more hit points and knew dead would come quickly to

i would take it as common sense. The bigger battle was yet to be fought and for that time they were on 'your' side fighthing the same enemies. You could've very well fought them and smote them after the battle or during the battle but that would have led to many many other patterns within the web of mysteries being pulled together and woven...

me and I havent had a chance to come face to face with them as I missed the last session and now they are gone),

patience young dwarven paladin....there is still time to tend to them at a later date and time.

I have to watch him ever so carefully knowing that he wants to lead me astray,

no you don't and no you don't know that....Out of PC knowledge used in game is bad. It happens, tend not to dwell on it...He could be just pulling your leg and giving you grief, did ya ever think of that?

now you cant tell me that his goals are for the greater good, when one of his goals are to lead a paladin astray.

i can and i will tell you his goals may be for the greater 'good'. Does he not want to route the kuo-toan city? Does he not want to reclaim the dwarven citadel for his people and return it to it's former glory? Does he not need a captian to lead his forces onward and into battle to smite down his enemies and forge the way for his land to come? Does he not need someone who knows tactics and needs advice on how to treat his people? Does he know all that there is to know about the past of his people with whom he wishes to restore? Does he not fight, bleed, and grieve when there is battle and comrades fall?

How can I have fun, when I have to put a microscope on all my roleplaying now.

I won't be that impossible to deal with. If you just start the next session with "I attack Valan" then I will just let the dice fall where they may. I agree iwth another poster. Write up your paladin code, email me with it and let's talk about it. That way i can say "Ok your going out of line here" or "Hey we might want to change this to better suit you" This is your PC, your rules, I have a set bunch of guidelines but I am very flexible on your code for it may be JUST for you...

And knowing fully that I have no chance to kill him in his present form (although the last part is out of character knowledge which I wont use in the game

bull again, you can kill him, you can make him die, you can butcher him and mount his head to a lance and cast his soul into the abyss to burn for 10,000 years or parade around heaven as a token of your glory. It CAN be done, you just have to have some tactics to do it. Remember my old saying: Use your head, not your sword arm to solve some of your problems...

 

[Leopold]

It looks like your paladin is just not sure what to do next - have you tried asking questions from the appropriate persons?

answer: No in game. Yes out of game.

From what Leopold said, there's another paladin in the group, right? What does he think?

Yes there is, unfortunately he only speaks Draconic (he's a half-dragon) so we would have to involve a 3rd party as a meadator and yes he may answer some questions if asked. He's very new to the party and an NPC and worships Bahamut so his views might be a bit on the extreme...i am researching bahamut to view how to play his worship...

Has your paladin ever considered the phrase "the greater good," and exactly what that means?

dunno, from the above post i have no idea. I only hope he does think on that.

Is he a character that believes the ends justify the means (and if so, is he really LN instead oif LG in general behavior?)?

From the way he has played before i don't think so. I know he has strove to be LG in all things, but he is new to playing a paladin and is there every other week so it's tough to remember fully all circumstances.

Has he tried using detect evil on the "friend" to see if he actually is tainted? If not, why not? If so, what were the results. From what Leo said, they should be fairly cut and dried...

No he has not, he has not had a chance, so no results found. And yes i expect to see the ole "Detect Evil/Smite" routine happening...in fact i am COUNTING ON IT

 

[Corinth]

Yeah, if you notice none of the other d20 WotC games use alignments.

Not true. Star Wars has an alignment system in the form of Dark Side points, which all characters are subject to regardless of sensitivity to the Force. d20 Modern has Allegiance, which is a softer version of Alignment and designed to be modular; it can track both D&D-style Alignment and other forms of loyalty such as to an organization simultaneously.

 

[Crimslain]

ok I will deal with it when it comes about, and yes, writing a code of honor sounds good, I will give it a shot. I honestly cant and wont say how I am going to deal with the situation just yet, but I promise I will not use any out of game knowledge with my decisions. I thank everyone fopr there posts they have been very informative , all pointing out very good ideas, thank you very much again.

Crimslain

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Not true. Star Wars has an alignment system in the form of Dark Side points,

Yes, it has an alignment system. But not the alignment system we know from D&D, with good vs. evil, order vs. chaos.

 

[dcollins]

Just to fun and games I figured I'd actually read the rules. Here's the SRD's description of the Paladin's code.... They don't HAVE to avoid associating with evil beings. They may choose to or it may be part of their diety's specific edicts, but it is not inherent in the class.

Incorrect. You overlooked the section on Paladin "Associates" on PHB p. 43: "... a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters." That's the rule.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Someone posted a beautiful explanation one time on this board, which I'll paraphrase. It came up in a discussion about whether Detect Evil would detect people of evil alignment.

There are two kinds of evil: "evil", and "Evil".

"evil" means he chose an evil alignment, does some evil things, etc., but there's nothing inherently nasty about him. He can be redeemed.

"Evil" means you're inherently evil (Devil/Demon). You're tainted, no matter what you do, and you will always be drawn to the dark side.
This is usually reserved for outsiders, or any race that has "Always Evil" as the alignment.
(First person to mention a certain drow gets smacked)

The point of this was, a normal human can be evil, not Evil. A Detect Evil spell shouldn't spot him, no matter what his alignment is, unless he is actively performing an evil action at the time. Unfortunately the rules don't differentiate like this.

Now, how does this apply to the original post? If the guy was just a normal human with evil tendencies, the Paladin MIGHT tolerate grouping with him for a common goal, as long as he is actively trying to do something good.
But, the moment you mentioned half-Fiend, he switched into that pure Evil group. "Cleric of evil deity" would have crossed the line in its own right.
In the most extreme deity's cases, he is now a thing to be Smited on sight. You can argue that your deity doesn't have such a restrictive code of conduct, so maybe you could excuse letting him live. But helping him gain power by restoring a destroyed kingdom? And, to top it off, not only is he not repentant about his evil, he wants to convert the rest of the party?

Kingmatzomat:
Helping a cleric of an evil deity gain power is, in itself, an "evil end" IMO, since by extension you're helping the evil deity gain power.

What amazes me is, there's a second Paladin in the party, of an even more extreme deity, and HE hasn't attacked the fiend yet?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Drizzt

Now we got the smacking behind us, we can go on and point out that drow are "usually neutral evil". Which means more than half of the drow are NE. And I think CE takes up another 25-30 %, coming to a total of 80-90%. Now there are not so many LE drow (there's no lawful drow deity), so there may be fully 10% of non-evil drow, be them outcasts like Drizzt, the ones that are merely CN, or worshippers of Eilistraee (a CG drow deity). No comparison to a demon, who is "always evil", which means that there may be some non-evil demon out there, but it's a one-in-a-million or even one-of-a-kind.

 

[Leopold]

Kingmatzomat:
Helping a cleric of an evil deity gain power is, in itself, an "evil end" IMO, since by extension you're helping the evil deity gain power.

i wonder, would helping a follower of another potentially evil diety still fall under that group, even though your god will be present and prevalent in the undertaking? so far in the group there are 4 major gods all present...religous differences? i think so...

What amazes me is, there's a second Paladin in the party, of an even more extreme deity, and HE hasn't attacked the fiend yet?

the other paladin was a slave that was rescued and was hobbled and couldn't move nore walk. More or less incapacitated. Now with some rest and a heal spell, i am sure he will redetect evil and see what comes up..that much i'll give to my players...

 

[dcollins]

There are two kinds of evil: "evil", and "Evil"...

The point of this was, a normal human can be evil, not Evil. A Detect Evil spell shouldn't spot him, no matter what his alignment is, unless he is actively performing an evil action at the time. Unfortunately the rules don't differentiate like this.

It's not unfortunate. What your talking about is an experimental distinction that was used in 2nd Ed. and didn't work very well. There's no basis for such a distinction in either D&D 3rd Ed. or AD&D 1st Ed. or any other version of the rules.

Evil is evil. As the "detect evil" spell shows, it may be faint, moderate, strong, or overwhelming, but by the rules there is no categorical distinction -- unless you're playing by 2nd Ed. rules.