A Paladin's Fall From Righteousness?

[geezerjoe]

Simply put : I don't think the paladin has YET done enought to loose her status, but she is definately on a "slippery slope." There are tons of RP possibilities here which could EASILY lead the paladin into the depths of corruption. If in your eyes she has begun to do things that are "out of line" then I'd suggest some subtle hints to the fact such as omens, dreams, ancient tales in which other things have happened to other heroes in the past, and such.

Keep up the GREAT work! I wish I had these kinds of problems in my games

l8r

Joe2Old

 

[drnuncheon]

I have to agree with the idea that she's treading in very dangerous area - not necessarily because she's 'associating' with an evil person, but because she's knowingly deceiving her companions. Betraying their trust is not paladinly behavior in the slightest, and she knows it - if she didn't think she was doing something "wrong" she wouldn't have lied about where she went.

What would I do? Well, her god would be keeping a very close eye on her. She will probably be tested in the months ahead, before her deity is willing to rely on her again. Basically, the deity would test her until she breaks, or until she returns to the path of righteousness, because the paladin is their sword, and a flawed weapon is more dangerous to the weilder than it is to the opponent. Far better to have it break in a test than when it is relied upon in battle.

If the deity doesn't have the resources or patience to test her, then they would strip away the paladin-ness, for much the same reasons. (Which could serve as a test in and of itself, as the paladin struggles to regain their god's favor.)

J

 

[Gothmog]

So far, I don't think the paladin has done anything to seriously jeopardize her ethics or party. Does she know Ghandethar is evil? If not, then there is no reason to penalize her for associating with him. If she does, and they seem to be genuinely interested in each other, nothing says that she might not try to "bring him to the light". Also, love (or lust) can do strange things to people's heads, and paladins and evil overlords are people underneath all the bravado and combat prowess.

As for whether she betrayed her companions, I would have to say that she hasn't yet. She didn't tell them the whole truth, but she didn't outright lie to them either. As one of her companions, I would probably be worried if I knew she had lied and where she had been, but at this point the DM has no reason to smack her with penalties.

Also, another thing that is important is how active of a role the gods take in monitoring their followers. Do the gods monitor them closely for moral and ethical violations? If so, the gods don't really trust their followers, and likely only see them as pawns or at the best children. In such a case, the god would probably give her a little leeway, but after a certain point she would be stripped of powers.

On the other hand, if the gods do not monitor their followers extremely closely, it implies the gods have more important things to do than scrutinize the daily lives of their followers. In such a case, her actions might go unnoticed for quite some time, until she committed acts so contrary to her god's tenants that the god severed contact with her. This is more morally relative, and allows for priests of the gods who don't strictly follow that god's alignment, but instead sometimes let personal feelings guide their actions. Once she really started to stray, the god would likely send her subtle omens, and finally give her one more chance to repent or follower the darker path, and she would have to permanently live with whatever choice she made. To me, this is the more compelling possibility.

 

[Umbran]

It's difficult to say what's up, without knowing her particular Code.

In short - if her Code doesn't reference romantic relationships or lies specifically, then it becomes a general alignment issue. And alignment is a long-term average of behavior. Single minor acts won't put her in trouble, there.

In long - hm. Lying to the party, lack of fidelity to a long-term lover. In most Earthly societies, these would be highly questionable. But, there's a question - what is her intent?

Paladinhood is a mixture of lawfulness and goodness. It is possible to be a paladin, and lean a bit to one or the other (to care a bit more about the rules than exactly how much good those rules do, or to care about the welfare of people a bit more than the rules). If her intent is to try to convert this evil warrior to the side of good and law, a little leeway might be granted on methodology.

If she has no intent, and is doing these things merely because she's attracted to him, well, now she's being self-serving.

I don't know if I'd punisher her, because I wasn't there, and don't have all the info. But it is certainly an option to be considered.

 

[pogre]

I agree with much of what was said here.

I would not revoke her paladinhood, but I would have her lose an ability until she redeemed herself.

In my campaign that would probably involve converting or killing Ghandethar. A paladin should have to make hard choices.

The tough thing about maintaining paladinhood is not staying Good it's keeping Lawful. When you say she was seduced - I am assuming no magic or supernatural trickery. Does her code prohibit such liasons? Lawful assumes a certain amount of loyalty - she also has erred in this area. Her behavior is not Lawful, but is for the most part Good.

Finally, I would let it all slide if you think repercussions might inhibit roleplaying from the Player in any way. Do the thing that makes your campaign better - in a way you like.

BTW - The campaign sounds like a lot of fun - enjoy.

 

[Snoweel]

Since everybody's already covered most of the relevant ground here, I'll just add that you should look first and foremost at the Paladin's intentions.

Even though there is a saying "The path to hell is paved with good intentions", that is a legalistic, non-Christian viewpoint. I say this because I know that SHARK is a Christian and the moral code of his campaign likely mirrors his own (as is usually the case in our homebrews).

So instead go with "God knows the hearts of men."

The Paladin's intentions are paramount in this instance and being blinded by love for this villain isn't cause to revoke Paladin-status until she is made aware of her folly.

 

[Sanackranib]

paladin

a few have questioned weither the paladins God didn't have anything better to do then keep an eye on her. IMO no he doesn't, at least not all the time. a lv 20 paladin is a beacon. her actions ar far more likely to attract divine attention then a starting paladin. also the Gods test those who serve them be they priest or paladin. I don't feel that she has embraced the dark side yet, certinly she has not yet done anything to loose her paladin status yet, although she is "looking" towards the dark path. I liked the idea of the dreams. if she is teetering then her God would surely test her and the test would come in the form of
Ghandethar. at that point her actions will guide the day. either side has much to gain in converting a champion of the other. let us know how it plays out.

 

[William Ronald]

I think that intent and the paladin's code is very important in this matter.

First, different faiths can have different interpreptations on what degree of honesty is allowed. For example, some codes of honor may allow white lies to save a persons dignity and spare them for shame. Or a lie may be told for domestic peace. (While I am not turning this to a thread on religion, SHARK may want to review the section of Genesis where a skeptical Sarah is told that she will be a mother -- at age 90. Okay, done skirting the danger zone.) Different philosophers can take a different stance. Immanuel Kant, as I recall, believed lying was wrong under all circumstances. Others have taken opposing positions.

In Sepulchrave II's Wyre story hours, which I STRONGLY recommend to those playing paladins or DMing Paladins, there is a remarkable opportunity to redeem someonte. The actions of a single righteous man affects the fate of many.

Intent is important, as is the deity's attentiveness. Perhaps Bronwyn should be tested or at least visited by a messenger of her deity.

SHARK, this episode in your campaign could indeed be a war for souls. The soul of Bronwyn and the soul of Ghandethar may be in the balance. The decisions these two make may have wide and unexpected repurcussions. Good gaming!

 

[Coik]

Like Gothmog said, I think an important consideration here is whether or not she knows that Ghandethar is evil. How have you been playing him, SHARK? Is he more Syndly Whiplash, or more Senator/Chancellor Palpatine? Has he ever set off her detect evil?

Other than that, I pretty much agree with everyone else...she definitely has some bad juju, but the amount really depends on what she knows about this guy. If she doesn't know he's evil, okay, no harm, no foul...but if she does know he's evil, her gawd is perfectly justified in wanting a dern good explanation as to why one of his 20th level paladins (who should really know better) is doin' this. In any case, he'd probably want to keep closer tabs on her for a while, just in case she does get on (or go over) the brink, in which case he may feel that gettin' Old Testament on her is the best course of action (gawds do really, really hate losing their pieces, particularly the powerful ones, to the other side).

 

[Celtavian]

re

I would revoke her Paladinhood until she received an Atonement. In the classic sense, Sir Launcelot fell for having an affair with the King's wife though he upheld every other aspect of chivalry and goodness. Paladin's do not or should not have the same latitude as common folk as indicative of an archetypical Paladin such as Launcelot falling though he failed only once, twice if you count being tricked.

She is breaking an implied trust with her Paladin lover in the group and is consorting with a known servant of evil, at least known to her god. She should be reprimanded and forced to seek out the cause of her god's displeasure.

When she determines what has caused her god's displeasure using Commune or whatever is available in her world, she should set out to atone for her sins. The first amongst them should be to honestly tell her Paladin love that she has betrayed his faith, and seek his forgiveness.

She has stepped out from the grace of her god, and it should not be viewed lightly by her god, any clergy or herself. The gods watch over their holy servants for they are there earthly representatives and it wouldn't do at all for a god to overlook the sins of one of their servants for any reason.