A Paladin's Fall From Righteousness?

[Celtavian]

Like Gothmog said, I think an important consideration here is whether or not she knows that Ghandethar is evil. How have you been playing him, SHARK? Is he more Syndly Whiplash, or more Senator/Chancellor Palpatine? Has he ever set off her detect evil?

The thing that must be remembered is that the god knows, even if the player does not. It is the god who can show his displeasure, while the player must seek out why their god is displeased.

Gods are omniscent, and unless this Ghandethar has some means to block the omniscence of a god, then he is fooling no one save for the Paladin herself. The Paladin may not know, but she is not fooling her god.

I think that is where it should start. She should lose some of her Paladin abilties, but not know the reasosn why. Then she should seek out that reason by searching her own heart as well as analyzing the recent events that may have led to the loss.

 

[drothgery]

Gods are omniscent, and unless this Ghandethar has some means to block the omniscence of a god, then he is fooling no one save for the Paladin herself. The Paladin may not know, but she is not fooling her god.

We pause here to note that the omniscience of deities (or lack thereof) is completely campaign-depndent. Certainly mythology is full of mortals tricking gods (and gods tricking each other), which is difficult if gods are omniscient. Indeed, in a world with a pantheon of more than two, omniscient deities are pretty unworkable, I think (if all gods know everything about fire and everyone who uses fire everywhere, why is Bob the god of fire?).

 

[ForceUser]

Some weeks later, Bronwyn’s group were exploring a subterranean temple, and she discovered Ghandethar resting in an enchanted grotto, with a sparkling waterfall. Bronwyn socialized with Ghandethar throughout the evening, before returning to her own company. When questioned by concerned party members as to her whereabouts, she causally remarked that she had gone off to explore, and to pray and worship.

Though she hasn’t “Betrayed” the party, would some of you think she should suffer for her actions? Not only is she associating with characters that are not only not good, but they are evil. In addition, she is engaging in being, shall we say, less than honest. What might be the response of a cleric of her deity in the party? What response might her deity make? Naturally, should her lover, Vandor, a powerful paladin in the group learn of her actions, he will certainly be upset. The rest of the company would no doubt take a dim view of her actions, especially since she is also considered the party’s leader.

I'm of the opinion that a paladin needs to constantly stumble along the path of righteousness or do something greatly vile to actually lose his paladinhood. Bronwyn is skirting a fine line, but love makes people do strange things...even paladins. I would let this slide mechanically, but through roleplay (visions, dreams, or a slight dimming of her paladin powers) she should become aware that her god is displeased with her actions. If she continues her deception the god's displeasure should rise gradually, perhaps corresponding with a decline in her powers. However, when finally confronted with the BBEG and his party, she'll have a choice to make: side with her evil lover and lose her status as a paladin forever, or side with her (presumably good) companions and stay a paladin. I would not, however, suggest that this is her choice - let her make the human decision and then revoke her paladinhood if warranted. It should come as a shock and, perhaps, a wake-up call. Even if she chooses the side of right, when the smoke clears I'd still force her to atone for the collective misdeeds she committed while having her illicit relationship.

 

[iwatt]

Isn't she just one feat away from the Blackguard prerequisites? (Sunder I think).

Just traid those pesky paladin levels for Blackguard levels, maybe even using the Epic levels of Blackguard. Mayebe you can talk the player into handing you one great NPC villain!

 

[Celtavian]

We pause here to note that the omniscience of deities (or lack thereof) is completely campaign-depndent. Certainly mythology is full of mortals tricking gods (and gods tricking each other), which is difficult if gods are omniscient. Indeed, in a world with a pantheon of more than two, omniscient deities are pretty unworkable, I think (if all gods know everything about fire and everyone who uses fire everywhere, why is Bob the god of fire?).

Yes, but usually they are aware of their worshipper's actions, especially if they are granting them powers as is the case with Paladin's who draw their powers from their relationship to their god. If that relationship is marred somehow, then they should definitely feel their gods displeasure.

 

[Umbran]

A couple notes on what Celtavian has said -

In some worlds, gods are omniscient, in others they are not. So that's got to be taken on a world-by-world basis.

As for Launcelot, he had an affair with the king's wife. In the classic sense, having an affair in general isn't a big deal. Having an affair with the wife of your leige lord is a different kettle of fish.

 

[Fedifensor]

I assume she's used Detect Evil on her paramour, to confirm he is indeed, by the textbook definition, evil.

I'd start by denying access to some of her spells - the 3rd and 4th level ones first. Her god knows she is willingly associating with an evil person (even though nothing has occurred to benefit evil as of yet). If this isn't a wake up call, deny her access to all of her spells. Regardless, the first time evil significantly benefits from her association with this nefarious character, revoke her paladinhood. Gods may understand infatuation (especially the Greek gods ), but paladins are the god's tools to stop evil. A paladin that lets a pretty face blind them to evil actions is a broken tool that should be discarded.

The half-truths/lying is a bit more nebulous...and if you enforce this part too harshly, paladins become one-dimensional characters. I'd be inclined to be lenient on this aspect of the code.

 

[Steverooo]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the affair with her non-husband Paladin lover... She's already guilty of fornication. Twice guilty, if she added the non-human to the mix.

Then there's the willing association with an evil character (in the temple, if not before). While I can see that (hard to imagine getting through life without it), it's a no-no, by the rules.

And then there's the lying... (she was NOT out exploring)!

So, I'd say the code was broken. What to do?

I'd use the 1e spell-granting rules. Levels 1-2 are granted by faith, levels 3-? by servants of god (angels, whatever), and the highest ones by god, himself...

Next time she prays for a level 3+ spell, have the angel/god just say "No"! Then she can ask why, and you can fill her in. Then she can pray for an Atonement, and get her spells... and the one granting them can remind her that he's keeping an extra-attentive eye on her.

Then let her decide what to do about it.

 

[F5]

What's your take on Evil in your campaign, SHARK? Is it black and white, elemental Eeeevil vs. uncorruptable Good, with nothing in-between? Are there shades of gray? Is alignment absolute?

If your campaign follows the standard D&D ideal of absolute evil, then Bronwyn has strayed to the darkside. She must realize, as a paladin, that the big bad warlord is evil, and has chosen to keep up a friendship. She has lied outright to her friends, she was NOT exploring, praying or worshipping. She was having a friendly chat with the forces of darkenss.

If your take on alignment allows more leeway, then her actions are questionable, but not outright betrayal. Think about what Ghandethar has actually done. She was taken captive in fair combat, treated well and honorably, defended against attackers, and then released. So far, Ghandethar has not acted "evil", as far as Bronwyn knows. His original intentions were evil, but now that he's fallen for her, maybe that's mitigated somewhat. Can evil people do good, and still be "Evil"?

Maybe Bronwyn's god sees this as a test; she comes out on the other side with a stronger devotion to her morals, and maybe she takes Ghandethar along with her into the light. Or maybe she falls. But she's only human after all.

The only tricky part is the lie, especially the lie of omission to her lover. That's Bad, by any definition of Lawful Good. She should be warned that she's on a dangerous path here, but not stripped of her paladin-hood. You've got a great, complex role-playing opportunity here. If she's stripped of her powers, it becomes a much less complex "quest to Atone". I think you'll have more fun if her god decides to let this pan out, and then deal with the consequences. Have her god let her know (visions, dreams, whatever) that she's on a dangerous path, but her decisions are her own.

 

[Fedifensor]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the affair with her non-husband Paladin lover... She's already guilty of fornication. Twice guilty, if she added the non-human to the mix.

Then there's the willing association with an evil character (in the temple, if not before). While I can see that (hard to imagine getting through life without it), it's a no-no, by the rules.

And then there's the lying... (she was NOT out exploring)!

So, I'd say the code was broken. What to do?

Actually, fornication isn't against the code. Paladins are lawful good, but unless your game is set in an alternate history of the real world, they're not Catholic. You could lump it into the "act with honor" clause, but it depends on the definitions honor has in your game world.

If we want to get technical, willing association with an evil character isn't against the code as listed...and I can see some situation where it would be an interesting roleplay hook. If the paladin was trying to convert the evil person to the side of good, for example. Or if the evil person was a part of the land's legitimate government, and the paladin was required to associate with him as part of her duties. It's definately something her deity would disapprove of, though - especially in the situation described in the original post. It's enough of a problem that I'd start restricting spell access.

The lying IS against the code, but my personal opinion is that the GM should be a bit lenient (for the reasons in my previous post). However, since her lying is protecting the fact that she's willingly associated with an evil person, it's definately not a good thing.