A Paladin's Fall From Righteousness?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Great stuff, everyone! The discussion is really interesting! Perhaps some additional information about the deity and religion is in order. The deity, as Rhiannon noted, is a god of war and strength, among other things. The deity has an alignment of Lawful Neutral, (with good tendencies) and has followers ranging from Lawful Good, to Lawful Neutral, to Neutral Good and Neutral. The deity is in strong opposition to evil, and is one among the gods of the Vallorean pantheon. The Vallorean pantheon has deities in it ranging from Lawful Good, to Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral, and Neutral Good.

Paradoxically, though the deity's headquarters and main temple is in Vallorea, the faith has spread to peoples and tribes that are *not* Vallorean. In Bronwyn's case, about three generations ago, a group of barbarians traveling the Vallorean Empire brought back the faith as converts. The new faith has established itself amongst the native deities of the tribes around Bronwyn's homeland, and her family from three generations back was one of the earlier converts.

This of course has had some different ramifications as the people in Bronwyn's homeland have naturally interpreted the religion somewhat differently from the way that the Valloreans practice the faith. This also means that, say someone like Vandor, a Vallorean, and Bronwyn, from the Galdain Tribes, while both having the same deity in common, have distinctly different cultures--as well as differences in the way they interpret and apply the religion to their own culture and to their own personal lives. These factors have had an impact on their relationship as well, as Vandor is the product of a highly sophisticated urbanized culture that has developed away from its own barbarian roots some 2500 years in the past, while Bronwyn is from a rough feudal culture that is only three generations or so developed away from its earlier barbarian roots. These differences are highlighted in the way they view sexuality, gender roles, individual rights, and so on. Bronwyn is actually a very disciplined person, though paladins from her culture--as Celtavian deduced--are in fact rare, certainly rarer than found in the Vallorean culture. Bronwyn's culture is much closer to a fusion of Celtic/Norse/Germanic barbarian cultures, developing into an organized, heirarchical, urbanized one--but is still largely rural, with strong tribal ties and customs. Vandor's, on the other hand, is highly developed, urbanized, centralized, and alltogether lawfully structured. Bronwyn's remains more rooted in a highly chaotic, individualized tribal culture in comparisson to Vandor's. Though Bronwyn is Lawful Good, her culture exerts a powerful influence on her values, behavior, and on how she interprets the will and strictures of her deity.

I'm still undecided about the cleric's response, as well as the deity's--and your responses and conversation are persuasive and thought-provoking!

Plot-wise, I certainly see a struggle for the soul's of both Bronwyn and Ghandethar developing! As for some of Ghandethar's motivations, he certainly wants to convert her to the faith of the Dark Gods, and yet, he does not want to kill her; in fact, he too, has been experiencing doubts as to who is really *corrupting* whom! Is he drawing her to compromise, and subtley embrace the dark path, or is she influencing him to follow her ways? On one hand, he want to destroy her faith and her party, and yet he cannot deny his feelings of attraction and desire to devote himself to her love, either. Her proud demeanor, as well as her passionate defense of her faith, as well as her making love to him has increasingly got him tied up in conflicting desires and conflicting goals! In truth, he isn't absolutely sure what to do with Bronwyn! He wants to dominate, conquer, and exalt his will and prowess over his enemies, and yet, when she embraces him, and speaks to him of love, friendship, and honour, his own focus and goals seem to cloud and blur. He too, wouldn't want his own warband to discover the depths and extent of his feelings for her, though he remains their leader. When he thinks of sacrificing her to the Dark Gods, or watching his companions slay her, or violate her in any way, he becomes enraged with himself and with such thoughts! In many ways, she is such a beautiful, strong woman who gives him feelings and emotions that no other woman really has before, he feels irresistably drawn to her.

Problems, problems!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Voadam]

So Shark,

Does the god care more about having a champion against darkness or about having a paragon of virtue beyond any appearance of impropriety?

If I was a war god with leanings towards good I'd not be worrying about minor "sins of omission" as long as the champion was doing what I wanted, and gaining a 30th level warlord to convert from evil to good and the war god's cause might be a bonus to the god.

Now the cleric on the other hand might very well view things differently, particularly if he is a citified cleric. Having a "strictarian view" cleric is an appropriate roleplay element that can be used to great effect.

 

[green slime]

IMO, the "atonement" of the paladin should involve telling the party the truth; where she was, and who she was with during this time.

The shame of having to look her compatriots in the eye and explain that she did not trust them. That she could not tell them the simple truth. Having to live with their condemnation of her actions. Their lost faith in her.

Should be ample punishment for the crime.

 

[Umbran]

If you feel the need to explain/justify it, you are in need of an atonement spell

I'd suggest a modification - if you feel the need to explain/justify to another person following the same code, you are likely to be in need of an atonement.

There's frequently a need to explain or justify actions to people who don't understand the rules by which you live. Those who haven't memorized, haven't been brought up with, or haven't dedicated themselves to living by this code should not be expected to grok how the Code is interpreted and used.

Note that SHARK has mentioned that there are paladins from two different cultures involved. While they might operate under Codes that have the exact same wordings, it sounds like some of those wordings might be interpreted differently.

So, the question is - would a paladin from her homeland think her behavior odd? If so, then she's probably in trouble.

 

[Voadam]

I'd suggest a modification - if you feel the need to explain/justify to another person following the same code, you are likely to be in need of an atonement.

There's frequently a need to explain or justify actions to people who don't understand the rules by which you live. Those who haven't memorized, haven't been brought up with, or haven't dedicated themselves to living by this code should not be expected to grok how the Code is interpreted and used.

Note that SHARK has mentioned that there are paladins from two different cultures involved. While they might operate under Codes that have the exact same wordings, it sounds like some of those wordings might be interpreted differently.

So, the question is - would a paladin from her homeland think her behavior odd? If so, then she's probably in trouble.

Actually I would think the perspective of the power granting the paladin power was more relevant than the character's home culture, it is ok for parts of the code to not jibe with the character's culture, she just then has to go against her cultural norms to stay a paladin (Joan of Arc a medieval frenchwoman warrior/leader would be an example).

 

[jasper]

oK I give a pass on the personal relations.
But she lie using her god's name. Now the god has a decision to make.
Do I let her lie and hope she converts the BBEG?
Do I give her a warning? If yes how much. Since it appears the god would allow a little lying in his name to gain the BBEG, I would with hold either one of her 4th level spells, or the spells she gets for her wisdom bonus. Until she either converts BBEG, or atones for the lapse.
For omens gee let see Seabiscuit (mount) stomps on her foot. Bucks her into a cold stream. Armour seems to rust quicker.

IMC a Pally can fart, cuss, drink, and have personal relations. But never allow an evil Character in the party. Most have their own code. I generally make them use the Paladin code from dragon mag long ago. Or use that as a base. Of course I still scratching my head on why I have two paladins of Thor who are CG. Of course both guys character have thier own code even if they haven't written down or know they do.

Sounds campaign but I don't think we need the huge stat block.

 

[Wrahn]

Would Vandor be hurt by Bonwyn have sex with Ghandethar and if so did she know this? If the answers to the questions above are yes, then she has betrayed Vandor and fallen from grace. Whether she was acting in accordance with what her culture believed, she was still acting in a manner with which she knew would hurt someone she cared for. If she was aware of it, and could not live with the restrictions of that relationship, she should have been honest and broken it off.

Does Bronwyn know of Ghandethar evil nature? Does she suspect it? Is she trying to convert him away from evil? If Bronwyn is aware he is evil, her duty is to either convert him or kill him, regardless of her personal feelings towards him. If she suspects, she should find out as a top priority, a paladin does not hide from the light of truth. Failure to find out or to convert or kill him is a dereliction of her duty, regardless of her personal feelings.

Lastly she was dishonest. There were a lot of way she could have dealt with the situation without resorting to misleading what are presumably her friends and loved ones. She could have told them she didn’t wish to talk about it, or ideally the truth and dealt with the consequences. Because her chosen deity is Lawful Neutral, and I know very little about the tenets of the faith or the personality of the god, I would assume that even a relatively minor infraction would be cause for her to fall from grace.

Sum up:

If she betrayed Vandor, loss of Paladinhood: severe Atonement (She was unfaithful, bad for a paladin)
If she is knowingly associating with the enemy without ulterior motives: loss of Paladinhood, medium Atonement (She was in dereliction of her duty, again bad for a paladin)
She was dishonest: Loss of Paladinhood, he atonement should not be too bad (something like telling the group the truth and explaining why she chose to lie to them, and receive their forgiveness)

I think from a LG or NG deity they would “warn” her, show her what a break in trust can do (like having her sudden and foundlessly believe that the party is lying to her), but LN deities are often inflexible, and a martial diety needs discipline in his disciples.

 

[The Sigil]

I'd suggest a modification - if you feel the need to explain/justify to another person following the same code, you are likely to be in need of an atonement.

No, I chose my words carefully and will stand by what I said.

If you feel that what you did requires explanation, there's a problem. Virtue and goodness should be able to stand on its own without you having to explain it. In fact, you'd be so used to doing it, it would never occur to you to do things differently, hence it would never occur to you that it needed explanation.

Now, when someone of a different culture ASKS you why you did it, and it dawns on you that not everyone is as virtuous as you, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish... but even then, you're likely as not to spend your time explaining virtue and goodness, believing that once you explain the principles of virtue and goodness, they will be able to understand easily why you did what you did.

In other words, you never feel the need to explain your actions - just your principles, with the understanding that once someone comprehends the principles, the reason for the ACT will become self-evident.

There's frequently a need to explain or justify actions to people who don't understand the rules by which you live. Those who haven't memorized, haven't been brought up with, or haven't dedicated themselves to living by this code should not be expected to grok how the Code is interpreted and used.

Precisely. But again, you are explaining the Code to them, not the act itself.

Note that SHARK has mentioned that there are paladins from two different cultures involved. While they might operate under Codes that have the exact same wordings, it sounds like some of those wordings might be interpreted differently.

I agree with Voadam here. "Culture" doesn't/shouldn't mean a thing to a paladin - except for the "culture" of his faith. Ultimately, the deity that grants the paladin decides on his worthiness. The deity sets the standard. The human culture that the paladin grew up in doesn't mean a thing to the deity.

For example, let's assume, for just a moment, that one of the tenets of a deity is that sexual relations are only to occur between a man and woman who are legally wedded, and that the deity expects his paladins to adhere to this tenet.

There could be some wiggle room based on culture - for example, a culture where polygamy (multiple wives, one husband) or polyandry (multiple husbands, one wife), or even multiple-party marriages (multiple husbands, multiple wives) might well allow a paladin from this culture multiple sexual partners... after all, the paladin IS legally wedded to each of the partners, and thus within the deity's code. This is obviously different from the current western culture's expectation of monogamy, but within the bounds the deity has set.

However, if the paladin came from a culture where marriage was not regarded as important and casual sex was the norm and marriage considered unimportant - or from a culture such as ancient Greece where homosexuality was encouraged - or even from a culture where homosexual marriages were legal, that would NOT allow him to engage in casual sex or in homosexual couplings without the expectation of "punishment" and "need for atonement" as regards his paladin powers - that may be the norm where he is from, but it's not according to the standards his deity expects from him (between a legally married man and woman - if they're not married, it's a problem and if they're not of opposite sexes it's a problem), and hence, he can expect to suffer penalties accordingly.

So, the question is - would a paladin from her homeland think her behavior odd? If so, then she's probably in trouble.

Again, paladins' behavorial restrictions are set by their deities. If a paladin from her homeland would think it odd, she's in trouble. If a paladin from ANOTHER HOMELAND would think it sinful, she's in trouble. If a paladin from another homeland would think it odd, but not necessarily sinful, she's probably okay.

To use the example above, a male paladin from a polygamous homeland would find monogamy odd, but not sinful. A paladin from a monogamous homeland would find polygamy odd, and possibly sinful until it was explained to him that polygamy was a legally binding marriage (though he might still take a dim view of it and its practicioners). A paladin from a "homosexual marriage" culture might find it odd that people take such a narrow view of "heterosexual marriage only" cultures (perhaps even being pleasantly surprised that these peoples' marriage ideals mean no tough choices for a paladin raised in the culture). But all three paladins would agree that a homosexual coupling or a coupling out of wedlock is definitely in violation of the code.

In other words, the deity sets absolute principles. Laws of cultures may affect the application of some of these principles, but paladins will recognize these principles regardless of their original culture.

BTW, I'm NOT trying to turn this into a political/religious discussion with the examples above; it simply seemed like the most convenient way to illustrate the interplay between cultural norms and a deity's standards. Please keep it in that context.

--The Sigil

 

[Kyramus]

From what I can see, she hasn't made any infraction to her tenets to her deity.

The diety is a god of war and strength.
1) In war, resourcefulness, including duplicity are employed to facilitate a better outcome.
Her lying to the group could well be her waging a war with the half titan, in the most silent of manner. It's a one on one battle in which she hopes to turn him to the side of good.
2) Again in war, the weighing of strength would also be looked at. Would 6 or 5 or whatever number the group was versus the 1 a fair fight? Her duplicity allowed for the half titan to get away, yet she showed mercy by not sicking a kennel of dogs against a fenced rabbit.

3) in strength, the half titan showed the strength of character that the girl liked/ can respect. Which of the other players can command such pulls on her heart strings? Even Crysania and Raistlin were on opposite ends of the spectrum, yet she loved him.

4) in strength, facing against the tide of her party members with the belief that she has done right is a show of great courage. strength of will and character.

Does she need to be penalized? No.
Is she on a slippery slope? No.


Have fun. Great story and great character.

 

[The Sigil]

Interesting thoughts, Kyramus, but it seems to me that in war, duplicity is encouraged WRT to your enemy, but not necessarily WRT to your allies... especially when it denies them a chance to wipe out that enemy.

It also seems to me you're trying to have it both ways. You want a god of war and strength, and you praise her for not taking advantage of her strength... then you praise her for being impressed when her opponent does. That doesn't cut it for me.

"Fairness" warfare has NEVER called for the sides to be "equally matched" - otherwise you COULDN'T have a winner. "Fairness" in warfare calls for not using underhanded tactics to gain more of an advantage than you "naturally" have. If you are at war, and you outnumber your opponent 100:1, you are not required to send 99% of your troops home to "even the odds." Doing so might be magnanimous and virtuous, but certainly NOT fair. A god of warfare and strength expects you to punch with your full force, not to pull punches because the other guy can't hit as hard.(that's the god of mercy who asks you to do that).

Which way do you want it... is she worshipping a god of honest warfare and strength or is she worshipping a god of mercy? If it's warfare and strength, she has shown weakness by not attacking when she had a fair and natural advantage and needs to be punished. If it's a god of mercy, she has allowed herself to be dazzled by strength rather than mercy... and needs to be punished.

Regardless, from the description given by Shark in the first place, MERCY never entered into it. Her emotions and feelings for the man were what caused her to lie to her comrades. That's not mercy in my book - that's emotional involvment and compromising her standards because of it.

One other thought WRT lying/deceiving her comrades... though it may be an Obi-Wan Kenobi line, IMO I should NEVER have hear this out of the mouth of a paladin...

"You see, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."

--The Sigil