A Paladin's Fall From Righteousness?

[Thyrwyn]

Redemption

maybe Bronwyn is the key to Ghandethar's eventual redemption?

That said: regardless of the way SHARK runs Detect Evil, the question remains - does Bronwyn believe that Ghandethar is evil?
Did she believe him capable of the evil acts to which he alluded or did she think he was bluffing?

If she believes him to be evil then she is in knowing violation of the code and I would rule her status is forfeit until she atones: regardless of whether or not Ghandthar actually were evil she knowingly associated with someone she believed to be evil.

as for the 'betraying the party's trust' issue - what about the trust that Ghandethar placed in her? - she could not very well violate that either, so to me that is a non issue. She did the right thing, though there may have been a better way.

Sounds like a great game.

 

[green slime]

Look, for those with an understanding of the gravity of intimacy in regards to the possible consequences of said behavior, faith and restraint is more akin to a lawful and good alignment.

For crying out loud...

Look yourself. In your opinion. In your world where there are all sorts of problems with diseases, birth control, unwanted children, alcholic parents, (List grows long). But in a fantasy world, where remove disease is a third level spell, (and SHARK's world is harldly "low magic"...)

Nobody said restraint wasn't practiced. It just might not be the level of restraint you think is appropriate.

If you think that society instituted control of sexual behaviors because they are prudes, you are very sadly mistaken. Control of sexual behaviors by religion was very important to the civilization and socialization of the human race as a whole.

I never said anything of the sort, so find some other bandwagon to wave your flag on. You are "sadly mistaken" IMO. You can start by defining "civilization".

There have been lots of different "Norms" for accepted sexual behaviours in the variety of cultures/societies that have appeared on the planet since apes left the trees, and started walking upright. Are you telling us that yours is the only correct one for a lawful society? What does a chaotic society look like? Can a society embrace an act of chaos, and remain lawful? If it is encoded into a law, is it still a chaotic act?

Just lay off the nasty, snide comments because I happen to have a differing opinion.

 

[Celtavian]

For crying out loud...

Look yourself. In your opinion. In your world where there are all sorts of problems with diseases, birth control, unwanted children, alcholic parents, (List grows long). But in a fantasy world, where remove disease is a third level spell, (and SHARK's world is harldly "low magic"...)

Nobody said restraint wasn't practiced. It just might not be the level of restraint you think is appropriate.

The word you is indicative of how you view things, thus indicating you have a Chaotic nature. A lawful person is constantly thinking of the group and how his or her actions represent the group.

Lawful should indicate group order, not individual. When you are looking at lawful good society and not a lawful good individual, you must take into account their goal of creating order for the entire group. When you look at a Lawful Good individual, you have to ask are the representing properly the ideals of their society. In this case, the society is not necessarily Lawful Good, so the Paladin may well be representing their society. So be it.

I never said anything of the sort, so find some other bandwagon to wave your flag on. You are "sadly mistaken" IMO. You can start by defining "civilization".

There have been lots of different "Norms" for accepted sexual behaviours in the variety of cultures/societies that have appeared on the planet since apes left the trees, and started walking upright. Are you telling us that yours is the only correct one for a lawful society?

Yes, that is pretty much what I am telling you. A lawful society will not allow nor encourage promiscuity of any kind. If it is done by leaders, they will cover it up. All types of interpersonal relations will be governed by carefully ordered social customs, whether it be sex or the proper greeting of persons of differing stations.

Now Neutral or Chaotic socities are another matter entirely.

What does a chaotic society look like?

Chaotic is the very antithesis of society as such societies tend to place a greater emphasis on individuality. I have always felt the reason Chaotic societies by their nature don't produce Paladins is because there are very few, if any, people present who will devote their life to the service of others.

Even in elven socities the primary leaders of the society are often Neutral or Lawful in nature. Look in elves of Evermeet at some of their war leaders, they can't even bring themselves to make all the leaders Chaotic Good. A society can have Chaotic Good social values, but most likely Lawful and Neutral Good folks will be implementing them, folks with an alignment that fits serving others with devotion.

Can a society embrace an act of chaos, and remain lawful?

It can. If it is rare. It will most likely occur beyond the control of the society or serving some greater social purpose.

If it is encoded into a law, is it still a chaotic act?

It isn't a lawful act, if that is what you are asking. If for example, you have a day of madness, like was seen in an episode of Star Trek, then that is the law. That means they are controlling their chaos by focusing it all into a single day of revelry. So the act is Chaotic, the law is meant to serve as a release from order for a day, it is Lawful.

Just lay off the nasty, snide comments because I happen to have a differing opinion.

My comments were a little abrasive, but snide? I just personally think you are being a little too lenient and tolerant of the actions of a Paladin who is usually looked upon as a paragon of order and goodness. The shining rock that defends society from the external forces of chaos and evil. Devoted defender of virtue, mercy, justice, fairness, and all those other fluffy things associated with being good.

Most of the lady Paladins I have seen run conduct themselves in an extremely lady-like manner barring donnning armor and whooping ass on a battlefield.

BTW, I'm done. Any deeper a discussion will get the thread locked. To each their own.

 

[green slime]

posted by Celtavian
It can. If it is rare. It will most likely occur beyond the control of the society or serving some greater social purpose.

Such as encouraging young people to discover themselves what they think is appropriate behaviour in a relationship, thus creating a foundation for more serious, longer lasting, happier relationships, rather than forcing people to marry in relationships where neither party has any idea of what expectations/likes/dislikes the other has, making it all but impossible to find someone who is compatible (given the importance sex plays in the lives of us mere mortals), and has to spend the rest of their natural lives in misery/abuse?

Bronwyn wasn't "cheating". She wasn't experimenting. She wasn't hazarding anybody's health or mental stability. It is no reflection on her character as to fidelity / faithfulness whatso ever. She was hardly "promiscuous". I hunger, I eat. I tire, I sleep. I desire nearness to one I love, we share a moment of time. These are basic human needs. I never solicitated promiscuous behavious for a Paladin. I just stated "open, caring relationships". The Old testamtent and Koran both allow polygamy (albiet only for men).

from www.dictionary.com
promiscuous
Having casual sexual relations frequently with different partners; indiscriminate in the choice of sexual partners.
Lacking standards of selection; indiscriminate.
Casual; random.

By your definition I can't see any LG society allowing any form of sexual "deviancy" at all, as it provides no "greater social purpose". Which IMO, is incorrect.

The control of sex, and the control over women by social taboos and the like, was a way for certain individuals to perpetuate their power. from pre-babylonian times, to the present. It has nothing to do with "good".

On the other hand, I personally see no earth-bound society as being LG at all. It is a Utopia. However should a fantasy society be declared as LG, I see no great hindrance to it allowing certain sexual freedoms, within limitations. In fact, IMNSHO, such is to be expected in a society which allows females to be warrior-generals, and treats women as equals rather than simpletons that should cook, clean and provide cheap labour.

 

[drnuncheon]

I'm with the slime here - the big problem is not whether or not the paladin has a relationship with the evil guy, it is in the fact that she intentionally and knowingly deceived her friends and compatriots - people who risk their lives for her, and she them, on a regular basis. That is not a Lawful act in the slightest.

It may (may!) have been a Good act, since she was acting to prevent someone from being treacherously killed - but then that's usually the classical dilemma of a Paladin: choose Law or choose Good.

Then again, there's a saying about ends and means, and one about the paving surfaces of roads leading to the nether regions. Were I Bronwyn, I'd start to wonder about my companions: If I don't think that they are going to do the right thing - if I think I have to lie to protect people from them - then why am I associating with them in the first place?

Paladinhood ain't easy.

J

 

[grimslade]

Consequences

Bronwyn lied to the party. She may have done so for the noblest of reasons, but she still decieved her comrades. Her guardian Eladrin is a bit concerned. There must be a consequence. I do not think that her powers should be stripped, but I think that her comrades should be informed through a vision or dreams.
Vandor would be a good candidate for this information, especially if he and Bronwyn share the same deity. A vision should come to Vandor while praying or meditating. The vision could be something cryptic; a lion lying down with a dragon, or it could be straight-forward, much more appropriate for a martial god. The vision could state that Bronwyn is on a precarious path that could lead to her and the party's ruin.

Grim

 

[Voadam]

Some weeks later, Bronwyn’s group were exploring a subterranean temple, and she discovered Ghandethar resting in an enchanted grotto, with a sparkling waterfall. Bronwyn socialized with Ghandethar throughout the evening, before returning to her own company. When questioned by concerned party members as to her whereabouts, she causally remarked that she had gone off to explore, and to pray and worship.

Though she hasn’t “Betrayed” the party, would some of you think she should suffer for her actions? Not only is she associating with characters that are not only not good, but they are evil. In addition, she is engaging in being, shall we say, less than honest. What might be the response of a cleric of her deity in the party? What response might her deity make? Naturally, should her lover, Vandor, a powerful paladin in the group learn of her actions, he will certainly be upset. The rest of the company would no doubt take a dim view of her actions, especially since she is also considered the party’s leader.

The two adventuring groups are certain to come into conflict again sometime in the future, and these elements will no doubt come to a flash-point.

I appreciate your thoughts on these developments!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Did she "go off to explore and to pray and to worship"? If so then no lie, just an omission. Acting with honor under the code says no lying, not volunteer everything.

Here is the paladin stuff from the srd:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells, including the service of the paladin's warhorse. She also may not progress in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities if she atones for her violations, as appropriate.

So she is still lawful good, did not do an evil act, and did not grossly violate the code of conduct.

She associated with evil which is forbidden but lists no consequences and did not reveal she was with the guy the other party members would attack on sight.

I would say no big deal and no divine/power consequences.

Paladinhood is risky enough by the code without micromanaging every possible thing that could be disapproved of.

I'd save divine power loss to evil actions, alignment change, and GROSS violations of the code. Even then there can be atonement. She did nothing on that level.

 

[The Sigil]

Greetings!

Hi, Shark.

Since I live "right next door" in Garden Grove, I'll tell ya - if ya ever need another player in your games, let me know. Depending on when you play, I may be available.

But on to respond, as asked, to your storyline:

Bronwyn has encountered a powerful warrior in combat while exploring some strange ruined city in an ancient, magical forest. Due to the ebb and flow of combat, she was knocked unconscious and captured by the enemy. The leader of the enemy forces that were fighting against the party is the warrior Ghandethar.

Lord Ghandethar held her captive for over six weeks, interrogating her about the party’s goals, history, and operations. During this time, Bronwyn was treated well, and with courtesy by Lord Ghandethar. Lord Ghandethar is the leader of a company of evil adventurers, and has been charged by their Shadow Dragon overlords to maintain security in the area of the ruined city, namely, to kill or capture any foreign invaders.

Nothing wrong with that. She was in honorable combat and defeated. As is the nature of Shark's campaign, she cannot just turn on her "paladinbot vision" and detect him as evil (whether or not I subscribe to this is of course another issue, but this is his campaign, I'll play by his rules).

Lord Ghandethar seduced Bronwyn while she was held captive, and a strange sort of attraction developed between the two characters.

Just in choice of words there, my "uh-oh" alarm goes off. A paladin should NEVER allow himself/herself to be seduced - perhaps there is not a better word to use, but to me, the word "seduction" connotes willingly giving in to carnal temptation - and willingly giving in to temptation is a very un-paladinly trait.

If it is instead supposed to read as something simply along the lines of, "she found herself attracted to him and had sexual relations with him" - that may be a slightly different kettle of fish. As was stated earlier in the thread, her culture seems to have fewer taboos about sex than the classic Arthurian archetype.

Ultimately, though, regardless of the fact that he became attracted to her, his goal was to corrupt her. She has submitted herself to his advances - she is doing what he had hoped. That in and of itself, independent of all other factors, tells me that she has already fallen from grace and is in serious need of an atonement spell. If your enemy has plans to corrupt you, and you accede to those plans, you have compromised your principles and are by definition corrupted.

During her captivity with Ghandethar and his company, they were attacked by a large force of evil frost giants. During the struggle, Ghandethar saved Bronwyn’s life, and ferociously fought and defeated the evil frost giants during the desperate battle.

After some six weeks of traveling with Lord Ghandethar and his group, Ghandethar let her go, with all of her possessions. Ghandethar gave her a mithril necklace, set with a dozen shimmering rubies of fantastic beauty and great value.

All of this is well and good in setting up the reasons that she might be infatuated with him, but ultimately, she has to ask herself, "why did he just let me go?" Anyone who can't see an ulterior motive in someone capturing you only to let you go is naive, to say the least.

In truth, Ghandethar has previously been spying on the party, and sought to corrupt some member of the group, and selected Bronwyn. However, even though he let her go, he is genuinely attracted to her, and has been smitten by her beauty and her persuasive personality. His plans have not gone quite the way he had anticipated.

Again, he is attempting to corrupt her. She is becoming complicit with him (and not the other way around). That puts her in a fallen state.

Some weeks later, Bronwyn’s group were exploring a subterranean temple, and she discovered Ghandethar resting in an enchanted grotto, with a sparkling waterfall. Bronwyn socialized with Ghandethar throughout the evening, before returning to her own company. When questioned by concerned party members as to her whereabouts, she causally remarked that she had gone off to explore, and to pray and worship.

First of all, I find it a bit odd that characters just "wander off" for an entire evening with nobody finding it odd.

Secondly, she just picked up another strike against her. Socializing with Ghandethar may not have been corrupt. However, lying about it certainly shows she is already putting her own desires above the welfare of the group... not exactly a LG trait. More importantly, though, she brought her god into it by claiming she was off to pray and worship. If she had just said she had gone off to explore, fine. But now she is trying to cover up her activities with a claim of piety.

I look at it this way. If I went to a strip club and came home and told my wife I had been worshipping at church and she later found out, she'd be a darn sight more upset than she would if I told her I had been at the grocery store (or even at my FLGS).

She's not only lying about her whereabouts, she's trying to throw a mask of piety over impious actions. If I were her deity, even if I was permissive of sexual relations, the fact that she's trying to use my good name to conceal her flaws and weaknesses is exceedingly offensive and I would definitely place her into a fallen state. Hopefully I'm making sense with that, but claiming you're going off to pray and worship is a much worse lie than claiming you're off exploring or doing something "non-pious" (different from impious).

Though she hasn’t “Betrayed” the party, would some of you think she should suffer for her actions? Not only is she associating with characters that are not only not good, but they are evil. In addition, she is engaging in being, shall we say, less than honest. What might be the response of a cleric of her deity in the party?

The response of the cleric of her deity in the party would depend very much on whether he was aware of her actions. If he becomes aware of her actions (which he might well - see below), he should probably call her on the carpet (perhaps in private, perhaps in public) and offer her the chance to atone. The cleric, in fact, may need to act as the "mouthpiece of god" for a short time to set her straight.

What response might her deity make?

I would suggest that her deity's response could run one of three ways.

1.) Strip her of her powers, forcing her to go to the cleric to commune and find out why. When the cleric communes with the god, he will be made aware of her failings - especially the "lie of piety" as discussed earlier, and will be instructed to rebuke her and offer atonement. This, of course, can make for an interesting dilemma for the cleric - does he tell Vandor? Does he make her problems public? How closesly will he watch Bronwyn in the future? This sets up a lot of emotional complexity between the two.

2.) The god sends a "vision/dream" to the cleric, gives to the cleric a parable and instructs the cleric to deliver the parable to Bronwyn (a la Nathan giving to King David the parable of the rich man and the poor man, then telling David that "Thou art the man!"). The cleric may not even be given the true meaning of the parable or know that Bronwyn is in a fallen state, if you so desire - he just knows that Bronwyn needs a bit of counsel. This is likely less emotionally difficult for the cleric, but more trying for Bronwyn, as she is forced to recognize her own duplicity in a very personal manner (as most experiences that "enlighten" one in a spiritual sense are). As soon as the parable is understood, Bronwyn's powers are stripped away, and she may need to go the cleric to ask for atonement - which may require swallowing her own pride. This route shifts much of the emotional complexity onto Bronwyn.

3.) A partial stripping of powers - or perhaps even a curse. Perhaps she is cursed with hearing "falsely done" every time she speaks. Or whatever. Or perhaps she has a vision where she is victorious on the battlefield but only through dishonorable tactics - and her powers are partially stripped as a result. No matter what, she needs some sort of wakeup call.

In any case, I think the involvement of the cleric deserves a lot of consideration. He can be a "gentle spiritual healer" or the "wrathful messenger of the gods" as she tries to recover from her folly.

Naturally, should her lover, Vandor, a powerful paladin in the group learn of her actions, he will certainly be upset. The rest of the company would no doubt take a dim view of her actions, especially since she is also considered the party’s leader.

Vandor's response plays very much into the resolution the cleric picks with Bronwyn. Should he call her out on the carpet publicly, Vandor will have his own set of issues to work through (including, possibly, anger and vengeance and other emotions that could cause HIM to fall). Should the cleric pull Vandor aside with "the uglier the truth, the truer the friend that tells it," Vandor may be the one who confronts Bronwyn and brings things to a head. Or both the cleric and Bronwyn may decide it's best for Vandor not to know - a paladin never boasts of his past weakness and indiscretions, and a cleric does not reveal sins confessed in confidence.

I think, however, that even if you don't agree that it's quite yet time to strip her of her powers, it is certainly time for Bronwyn to realize her folly - whether by her god stripping her of her powers abruptly, or through subtle hints to the cleric. A 20th-level paladin is a pretty powerful servant of good, and one suspects that (a) her god will be watching her a little more often than a 1st-level paladin and (b) he has a vested interest in pulling her back if she starts to stray too far - he will certainly try to make sure one of his champions knows where they're going and isn't going to just let them blithely wander off into evil without a little bit of a warning. Heck, more possibilities open up - if the cleric pulls a Jonah called to Nineveh and refuses to confront her, HE might be stripped of his powers, too! I just think that having a high-level cleric in the party who could ostensibly be used as a mouthpiece of god is a terrific way to involve three characters (Bronwyn, Vandor, cleric) in a tough emotional triangle when the cleric has it revealed to him directly that Bronwyn is wavering. It may push Bronwyn toward or away from him, and Vandor toward or away from him... and of course, they may be pushed toward or away from each other.

Most importantly, though, it might also be a reminder to Bronwyn that the responsibility of a paladin to live the life required of them is a 24/7 - not just "when people are watching." It might also be a reminder not to trust in her own stength, but to consider the true source of her might - her god... and that "god is always watching."

The rest of the company, well, they'll probably be disappointed, but I don't think their emotional investment will be quite as great as these three (Bronwyn, Vandor, cleric).

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

One other thought (it's quick, I promise).

I feel that the easiest way to check to see if a paladin has violated "the code" is the following:

If you feel the need to explain/justify it, you are in need of an atonement spell.

Since Bronwyn's player has shown up attempting to explain/justify it, by this rule, Bronwyn is in need of an atonement spell.

--The Sigil

 

[Voadam]

I think if you go beyond enforcements against evil actions or GROSS violations of the code you are adding on to the paladin restrictions as written and the player should be told that up front before the paladin class choice is made.

A good roleplayer can work with harsher restrictions than those written in the class, but it is poor form to add in such additional mechanic affecting restrictions after a player has been playing a paladin for a while without some in game reason for the change.