A power attack feat for ranged weapons...

[Storyteller01]

How are they different?

 

[Nifft]

Or Point Blank Shot, which is better than any comparable melee feat?

Point Blank Shot is fantastic, but it does have a serious limitation (which Sneak Attack shares): you must be within Charge range to use it. For an archer with a composite longbow who could be an extra 80 ft. back, that's no small thing.

Cheers, -- N

 

[paradox42]

I have to weigh in on the side of archery needing a boost like this. I've been running games to high level for years now, and in fact my current games are Epic (the characters range from 27th-30th) and near-Epic (characters after level-ups gained last session are 17th-18th, with one character being equivalent to 23rd due to a template gained in game). And I've seen people try archers in many of those games.

Invariably, the archer gets overshadowed in combat by a melee tank-type character who Power Attacks with a two-handed weapon, and by the "blaster magi-" spellcasters using powerful, usually metamagicked with Empower and/or Energy Admixture, and Maximized with magic items, ranged spells. DR frequently cancels out most if not all of the damage an arrow does when it hits anyway- sure there are elemental and alignment magic boosts like Flaming, but those allow immunities to come into play. The melee character has Power Attack to get past DR, but not the archer- what good are six arrow hits if none of them can deal even 1 point of damage to that Iron Golem/Mithril Golem/high-level Dragon/high-CR fiend? Nobody seriously considers an archer for the Epic party, when new characters are being discussed for bringing in.

The one archer in my games right now is in the near-Epic party, and hasn't been able to do anything significant in combat in months thanks to all the other effects being used. Archery may look great at low levels, but it peters out fast in the middle range and is damn near useless after level 16 or so, in my experience. It badly needs something to boost it at upper levels, and stuff like Manyshot isn't gonna cut it because one measly arrow almost never deals enough damage to matter to a high-CR opponent. A feat like this could give that character something to do again. Since the archer in question is a Ranger, she's been finding another niche by using her spells carefully, often for cool buffs like Linked Perception, but I'd still like to give the character a chance to really do something "kewl" in combat again. Throwing an army of low-level baddies at the party does not do the trick, because the blaster-magi just open up with area-effect spells (Widened if necessary) and that, as they say, is that.

If the prerequisites for this "Archery Power Attack" feat are made such that only high-level characters can get it, I think that should mitigate any concerns the lower-level gamers have in mind while still allowing the archer to shine at high levels again.

 

[paradox42]

Careful Aim [Fighter]
You deal a lot of damage when you take the time to focus on a shot.
Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, BAB 6+, Wisdom 13+
Benefit: You can make a single careful shot as a full attack action. Your careful shot deals an extra +1d8 damage for every potential attack you give up. (So, if you have a BAB of 8, you would lose your second iterative attack and deal an extra +1d8 damage. If you had the Rapid Shot feat, you could elect to deal an additional +1d8 damage in exchange for taking a -2 penalty on attack. If you were hasted, you'd get yet another +1d8 damage.)

How's that look?

Cheers, -- N

I have to say, I like this mechanic a lot. It sort of has a feel of "Bard vs. Smaug" to it, that the archer is finding that one... vulnerable... spot! that lets the arrow get maximum penetration and deal enough damage to, say, take down a dragon with one shot. A note should be added that if the shot gets a critical, the extra damage dice are multiplied with it, since Power Attack damage similarly multiplies on a crit.

Plus, as an added bonus, the feat isn't that great for characters below level 11 or so- the extra damage from this is easily overshadowed by magic items at low levels, while once you have, say, three extra attacks to pump into it, it becomes noticeable and definitely worth having. I think I'll run this by my players at our next session in two weekends and see how they like it.

 

[Darklone]

Brutal Throw and Power Throw?

 

[Storyteller01]

What I had in mind was just a one-for-one trade.

So far the consensus has been against, with concerns that there will be more attacks and that archers will be harder to hit.

Guess I'mm going to sound like an @$$, but this doesn't bother me so much.


Anything else?

 

[Nifft]

Brutal Throw and Power Throw?

I like those quite a lot, and had forgotten about them. For some reason, throwing weapons with more force / less accuracy seems more plausible than doing the same thing with a bow (or crossbow).

(I guess it's partly the "realism" aspect, but also partly the mechanical aspect: thrown weapons are typically less optimal than bows or even crossbows. There's no enhancement addition or special ability stacking, for example.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rhun]

Invariably, the archer gets overshadowed in combat by a melee tank-type character who Power Attacks with a two-handed weapon, and by the "blaster magi-" spellcasters using powerful, usually metamagicked with Empower and/or Energy Admixture, and Maximized with magic items, ranged spells. DR frequently cancels out most if not all of the damage an arrow does when it hits anyway- sure there are elemental and alignment magic boosts like Flaming, but those allow immunities to come into play. The melee character has Power Attack to get past DR, but not the archer- what good are six arrow hits if none of them can deal even 1 point of damage to that Iron Golem/Mithril Golem/high-level Dragon/high-CR fiend? Nobody seriously considers an archer for the Epic party, when new characters are being discussed for bringing in.

Why aren't these epic and near-epic archers using adamantine arrows?

 

[Darklone]

I like those quite a lot, and had forgotten about them. For some reason, throwing weapons with more force / less accuracy seems more plausible than doing the same thing with a bow (or crossbow).

(I guess it's partly the "realism" aspect, but also partly the mechanical aspect: thrown weapons are typically less optimal than bows or even crossbows. There's no enhancement addition or special ability stacking, for example.)

Cheers, -- N

But TWF, ITWF plus Rapid Shot??? More more more attacks?

 

[Nifft]

But TWF, ITWF plus Rapid Shot??? More more more attacks?

Yes, but:

1/ Only at depressingly close range; and
2/ Only with a bunch of individually enchanted weapons (very expensive!); and
3/ Only if you ALSO take Quickdraw (so more feat intensive).

Basically, bows rule because you can shoot a lot of normal (super-cheap) ammo from a kick-butt bow and have all the kick-butt effects hit your target.

Sure, you can get tons of attacks with TWF, Rapid Shot, Quickdraw and a bandoleer of daggers, but -- you WILL run out of daggers, or you will have paid for many magical daggers of returning.

And you're doing it all from within 40 ft. (assuming you also have Far Shot; 20 ft. without). That's not where an archer wants to spend his time. (And archers get enough range to usually not bother with Far Shot.)

Cheers, -- N