A power attack feat for ranged weapons...

[Vrecknidj]

If you're really committed to this idea, maybe require a chain of feats.

Feat 1) For each -2 to attack, you gain +1 damage, cannot get the "plus" above +5
Feat 2) For each -2 to attack, you gain +1 damage, cannot get the "plus" above +10
Feat 3) For each -2 to attack, you gain +1 damage, no limit to the "plus" to damage
Feat 4) The tradeoff becomes -1 to attack for +1 to damage

Dave

 

[Felnar]

For some reason, throwing weapons with more force / less accuracy seems more plausible than doing the same thing with a bow (or crossbow).

thats the reason i'd cap the max +dmg pretty low
you can only draw a bow back so far

the other option is a mechanic for spending more time per attack (thus fewer attacks per round) to aim for vital areas

 

[paradox42]

Why aren't these epic and near-epic archers using adamantine arrows?

Doesn't matter when they do- their damage output is still negligible in comparison to the melee tank and the blaster magi. No matter what, the base damage is still only 1d8 + STR mod- elemental and other damage types can add to that, sure, but it adds to the melee fighter's attacks too. The melee tank, meanwhile, goes ahead and Power Attacks for +20 or so with his Greatsword and deals upwards of 45 damage base (meaning, if he rolls a 1 on damage).

Also, it helps to know that this Epic game is the same one where the tank got himself a magic item that lets him use Giant Size, meaning that he can actually become a Colossal-size Greatsword-wielding maniac with a STR score of 60+. Under those circumstances, he rarely Power Attacks for less than his maximum amount, and typically scores over 100 points of damage per hit. No archer, no matter how optimally built, can compete with that kind of damage output. A feat to keep up with Power Attack is the only way to achieve any kind of parity.

 

[solkan_uk]

How are they different?

In Spycraft the max caps are Str bonus +2 for All-Out Attack or Dex mod +2 for Bullseye as a penalty on your attack roll, and you get x2 that on your damage. If you miss you end up Flat-Footed. Str or Dex 13+ is a requirement for each respectively

However there are a couple of points to bear in mind there... Most effects that provoke an AoO in most D20 render you Flat-footed in Spycraft, also Spycraft feats tend towards the higher end of D&D feats.
As a final point Spycraft doesn't require All-Out Attack as a prerequisite for Cleave (named Cleave Basics in Spycraft) and thus far All-Out Attack isn't a prerequisite for any feat.

And as I noted before, it's a different game, and it's generally assumed most people you're going to be fighting have guns in it. Comparisons may not apply.

 

[Machiavelli]

...the tank got himself a magic item that lets him use Giant Size, meaning that he can actually become a Colossal-size Greatsword-wielding maniac with a STR score of 60+.

And it is at this point that my brain shuts down, and I can no longer participate meaningfully in this conversation. With that staggering level of epic cheese, attempts to balance anything become almost futile: there's always some other bizarre form of synergy that overshadows your own character's uniquely fanciful character sheet lunacy. One day I would be thrilled to learn how DMs handle creating an epic-level world, where the PCs can essentially do anything they want to, because nothing short of a team of higher gods can stop them.

Levels 4 through 16 seem so much friendlier.

 

[green slime]

I get around this problem of high level archers being rendered near impotent by DR with a revolutionary solution:

Magical arrows and magical bows stack.

The solution, of course, requires that GMW only affects a single missile (not 50) and so acquiring 50 +6 magical arrows is expensive.

 

[Storyteller01]

thats the reason i'd cap the max +dmg pretty low
you can only draw a bow back so far

the other option is a mechanic for spending more time per attack (thus fewer attacks per round) to aim for vital areas

The mechanic doesn't represent pulling back further on the string, but taking lose aim at specific areas. The result is a lesser likelyhood of striking, but those shots inflicting more damage when they do.

This concept actually exists IRL. It's the basis of any automatic small arms weapon (why give the M-16 A2 a three round burst option?). Those who want to test this can try it on first person shooters, especially those with weapons that offer one hit kills if you hit specific locations (disc launcher to the head!!). Those that can't shoot accurately shoot alot, with similar results.

 

[saucercrab]

Doesn't matter when they do- their damage output is still negligible in comparison to the melee tank and the blaster magi. No matter what, the base damage is still only 1d8 + STR mod- elemental and other damage types can add to that, sure, but it adds to the melee fighter's attacks too. The melee tank, meanwhile, goes ahead and Power Attacks for +20 or so with his Greatsword and deals upwards of 45 damage base (meaning, if he rolls a 1 on damage).

Also, it helps to know that this Epic game is the same one where the tank got himself a magic item that lets him use Giant Size, meaning that he can actually become a Colossal-size Greatsword-wielding maniac with a STR score of 60+. Under those circumstances, he rarely Power Attacks for less than his maximum amount, and typically scores over 100 points of damage per hit. No archer, no matter how optimally built, can compete with that kind of damage output.

Well, yeah, you gotta' give the archer some custom item(s) as well, like a quiver than can produce any type of material arrow, & when fired, becomes the size of a ballista bolt. Or something... You can't just say, "epic archers suck, in part because we have a fighter with a massively powerful epic magic item that ups his damage output."

A feat to keep up with Power Attack is the only way to achieve any kind of parity.

So make it a feat, but make it an epic one (as archers aren't hosed in non-epic levels, as they apparently are in your epic games).

 

[paradox42]

Well, yeah, you gotta' give the archer some custom item(s) as well, like a quiver than can produce any type of material arrow, & when fired, becomes the size of a ballista bolt. Or something... You can't just say, "epic archers suck, in part because we have a fighter with a massively powerful epic magic item that ups his damage output."

Reread my posts more carefully. I never said that, nor did I imply it. I offered the Epic cheese as an example, not as an argument. The problem does not result from the Giant Size item- the problem results from the fact that Power Attack lets the fighter add such a ridiculous amount to his damage total. Even without the Giant Size, the fighter in question (30th level at this point) always deals over 60 points of damage per hit before any DR is factored into the equation.

The problem I stated in my posts is that no archer build can produce that much damage from one hit. A two-handed melee build can, and that's without any serious optimization. Even at 20th level, a two-handed melee tank using Power Attack will typically deal in the range of 40-50 points per successful hit. No archer can keep up with that- sure, range is fun, but what good is it if the attack itself is useless when it hits?

So make it a feat, but make it an epic one (as archers aren't hosed in non-epic levels, as they apparently are in your epic games).

You missed my point. This isn't an Epic-level thing, it's a high-level thing. There isn't as much cheese neutering archers at pre-Epic levels as there is at Epic, but the problem still exists. Archers are hosed in pre-Epic levels- just not until level 11 or so when the 2-handed melee guy using Power Attack starts to be able to seriously outstrip them in per-attack damage.

That was why I said the scaling feat offered by Nifft was such an elegant solution. It requires the archer to give up attacks to work, which means that lower-level archers- who certainly have fewer attacks to pump into it- can't get the damage up as high. But when the chips are down, and everybody's 20th level facing off against Dragotha, Kyuss, or some other ultra-powerful entity, the archer can concentrate his fire on the one all-important shot against the one all-important foe and do more than a pinprick.

 

[saucercrab]

Reread my posts more carefully. I never said that, nor did I imply it.

You might not have meant to imply it, but I inferred it. My apologies for that.

I offered the Epic cheese as an example, not as an argument. The problem does not result from the Giant Size item- the problem results from the fact that Power Attack lets the fighter add such a ridiculous amount to his damage total. Even without the Giant Size, the fighter in question (30th level at this point) always deals over 60 points of damage per hit before any DR is factored into the equation.

So from 45 to 60 points now?

Archers should have a bit easier a time penetrating DR, epic or no.

The problem I stated in my posts is that no archer build can produce that much damage from one hit. A two-handed melee build can, and that's without any serious optimization. Even at 20th level, a two-handed melee tank using Power Attack will typically deal in the range of 40-50 points per successful hit. No archer can keep up with that- sure, range is fun, but what good is it if the attack itself is useless when it hits?

You missed my point. This isn't an Epic-level thing, it's a high-level thing. There isn't as much cheese neutering archers at pre-Epic levels as there is at Epic, but the problem still exists. Archers are hosed in pre-Epic levels- just not until level 11 or so when the 2-handed melee guy using Power Attack starts to be able to seriously outstrip them in per-attack damage.

With archery's other advantages, I don't see strict damage output as the only thing that should matter.

That was why I said the scaling feat offered by Nifft was such an elegant solution. It requires the archer to give up attacks to work, which means that lower-level archers- who certainly have fewer attacks to pump into it- can't get the damage up as high. But when the chips are down, and everybody's 20th level facing off against Dragotha, Kyuss, or some other ultra-powerful entity, the archer can concentrate his fire on the one all-important shot against the one all-important foe and do more than a pinprick.

Nifft's feat reminds me of the Order of the Bow initiate's ranged precision attack.