A proper skill-monkey

[Tomalak]

I have an opportunity to play a concept I've long wanted to use, but I'm not sure how to best go about it. I'm familiar with the basic rational for bard & rogue, but is there another way to do this? I've been out of 3.x play for a while, and was never as familiar with 3.5 as I was with 3.0 So any advice/ideas would be appreciated. Here's what I need:

I'm planning an Int/Cha skill monkey. I'm going to need at least twelve skills (All the social and several craft and knowledge), and the character is built @ level 5. Combat effectiveness is a plus, but very low priority.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I played a high-Int Rgr/Diviner/(other classes) who had almost as many skill points as the party "legitimate businessman" and nearly as many class skills to work with...though most of them were KSs.

For what he did, he was pretty much tops or as good as anyone else.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

There are a few options. First of all, if you need to have 12 skills at max rank from level 1 on, Rogue is the only 8 +int skill class I know of that gets the social skills you probably need. I don't know of any means of getting +4 int by race/template to cover a 6+int class, at least not ones that wouldn't have an awful ECL. If it's ok to start with 6+ int skills and just crank up your int score, and you don't want Rogue, here are other options:

Bard
Pros: Large cha and social basis, with music and spells to bolster this.
Cons: Other than bardic knowledge, not much use for a very high int score. Raising int above cha to make up for skill points would be slightly suboptimal.

Factotem (Dungeonscape)
Pros: Only class that gets every skill as a class skill. Benefits heavily from a high int, arguably as much as a wizard does. Class features tend to be "add int to x." High int also allows you to take Font of Inspiration feat more frequently, a chain feat as important to the Factotem as Natural Spell is to Druids.
Cons: Only real con is not much cha-basis. Aside from taking cha skills and makingi t an important stat, it's almost a dump stat for the class (even wisdom affects opportunistic piety, at least).

Beguiler (PH2)
Pros: Only full casting option (limited spell list, though not any more limiting than say...a Bard's list). Int-based casting, so not unoptimized to max the hell out of int. Benefits gained from feinting in combat + social class skills make cha worthy o being high, second to int. Spells support social skill set.
Cons: ....None, really, other than having 6 + int skill points. I think the class is a little over the top, myself.

 

[Herzog]

I'd say the Able Learner Feat (from Races of Destiny) is something to go for. It allows you to buy all skills for one skillpoint per rank (even for cross class skills) although the max ranks remains the same.
Requires you to be Human, Doppleganger or Changeling though.

Other options to consider are the Bardic Knack alternate class feature ( from Player Handbook 2, replaces Bardic Knowledge) that allows you to treat all skills as if you had half your bard level in ranks in them. Trained only skills need to have at least 1 actual rank in them to allow this.

This could free up skillpoints you'd be pumping into cross class skills otherwise. (note that this feature does not let you qualify for feats or PrC's that require a number of ranks in a certain skill. You still need actual ranks for that)

Alternatively, the Jack of All Trades feat from Complete Adventurer allows you to treat all skills as if you had 1/2 a rank in them (effectively making all skills Untrained skills!)

All above are options to 'cover all your bases'. For your real focus, you're still better off with

 

[Tomalak]

I played a high-Int Rgr/Diviner/(other classes) who had almost as many skill points as the party "legitimate businessman" and nearly as many class skills to work with...though most of them were KSs.

For what he did, he was pretty much tops or as good as anyone else.

What is KSs short for?

My only real problem with Rogue is that Knowledge skills are key to my character concept. Is there any feat in 3.5 that lets me add a class skill, or gives me bonus skill points? That's what I really need.

 

[Herzog]

-Take Able Learner. The cross class skills now only cost one rank, just as if they were class skills.
-Take one level of Wizard. Or Bard. Or any other (prestige) class that has all knowledge skills as class skills. Now all all knowledge skills have a max as if they are class skills.
-Take levels in a skillpoints-heavy class or PrC.

done.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

What is KSs short for?

My only real problem with Rogue is that Knowledge skills are key to my character concept. Is there any feat in 3.5 that lets me add a class skill, or gives me bonus skill points? That's what I really need.

You could take the Education feat, from the Eberron Campaign Setting. All knowledge skills become class skills and you get +1 on two knowledge skills of your choice. Note that you can only take the feat at 1st level, if that affects your build at all.

 

[Tomalak]

-Take Able Learner. The cross class skills now only cost one rank, just as if they were class skills.
-Take one level of Wizard. Or Bard. Or any other (prestige) class that has all knowledge skills as class skills. Now all all knowledge skills have a max as if they are class skills.
-Take levels in a skillpoints-heavy class or PrC.

done.

Is this how multi-classing works now? I thought class skills were only class skills for the levels you are taking in the class. Is that not the case?

You could take the Education feat, from the Eberron Campaign Setting. All knowledge skills become class skills and you get +1 on two knowledge skills of your choice. Note that you can only take the feat at 1st level, if that affects your build at all.

The Education feat is exactly the thing I was looking for, thank you Stream!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Is this how multi-classing works now? I thought class skills were only class skills for the levels you are taking in the class. Is that not the case?

It's a little complicated until you understand, then it's fairly simple to remember. Basically, a skill that was ever a class skill for you remains so, in terms of the number of ranks you cna pour into it (Hit Dice +3). However, the price you pay in skill points depends on what class you leveled up in when you allocate skill points. A Rogue 4 / Wizard 5 that just leveled to 5 in Wizard could have up to 12 ranks in Open Locks, because it is a class skill via Rogue. However, to increase it (we'll assume it was previously maxed at 11 ranks) to the 12th rank, he needs to spend 2 skill points to do so, because he's using a wizard level to increase it.

The Able Learner feat "trick" is that Able Learner leaves the cross-class / class skill rank limitations, but you never have to pay double for a rank increase. A Barbarian 1 could still only have 2 ranks in Use Magic Device (cross class limit), but he would pay 2 skill points for it instead of 4. Thus, the trick is to take a single level in a class with a large skill list (Factotem, having every skill as a class skill, is the most optimzed/extreme choice). Now your rank limit on all skills is HD +3, and because of Able Learner, you're only paying 1 skill point for each rank.

 

[Tomalak]

That seems to have me mostly covered. Thanks for the help guys.

I do seem to have one outstanding issue though: Is there any way to get more skill points? I need several rather esoteric skills. Basic class+int doesn't look like it's going to cut it.