A question about Magic and Law enforcement interacting

[Wraith Form]

If you want much more on the subject, this is a good resource:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589780396/104-2203053-3239113?v=glance&n=283155

God, I love this book.

 

[Wraith Form]

And on top of that there are dozens of ways to fool magical divination, ranging from the mundane (disguises, misinformation) to the magical.

OK, magical divination I can see--but clerical or divinely granted divination--? How do you deceive a god?

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Agreed. For day to day crimes of those of the lower classes magic is a waste of resources. However for high treason, who the king can trust and who he cannot, it is in the king's self interest to know the truth. Convicting a loyal follower is going to weaken the king, not just in losing the loyal person but in still having the very disloyal person (i.e. the one who framed the loyal person) around. My vote then is for kings to have magic items for detecting truth, enchantments, etc. This way they know and decide the issue, and can easily frame someone they wan't to get out of the way.

Like I said, if they aren't using every available resource to decide who's guilty, the government's in on it.

 

[WayneLigon]

OK, magical divination I can see--but clerical or divinely granted divination--? How do you deceive a god?

Not all gods are omniscient. It also depends on the type of gods in the campaign.

 

[reanjr]

I think you'd be better off embracing the spells. Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe has some really good sugggestions about this topic. You seem to have a slightly more modern idea of law in mind, so I'll alter this a bit.

Prosecution and defense can both pay fees to the magistrate to allow the casting of spells for the purpose of trial. Clerics can be called as expert witnesses. Zone of truth can be cast. But so can dispel magic. If a witness is under the effect of zone of truth, a second expert witness can be called to testify to the fact that the zone of truth was in fact cast, reaffirming the witness's testimony. At this point, the cleric's credibility is on trial. And so on...

So zone of truth can help, but it's no guarantee unless the magistrate/jury all have Spellcraft and can determine that the spell was cast.

 

[BluSponge]

Does this seem unrealistic or unbelievable? Does this smack of me being a Rat Bastard DM by forcing the characters to utilize detective skills instead of wrapping up the story with a dandy divination or by beating up the guy who pointed the finger at the character's father?

Or am I being uncreative by thwarting the usage of these spells to handle this storyline? While I expect some people will not like my idea on how to handle this, if you don't like it, tell me what you would do differently so that this storyline isn't over in five minutes instead of taking a session or two and providing a number of hooks for future stories.

It does strike me as being unrealistic and unbelievable. However, lets step back a bit and examine a few things.

First of all, local law enforcement bodies will no doubt employ a priest of the god of justice (assuming there is one in your world) as a consultant, especially in cases such as treason. "Do you have any accomplices? Who are they?" That sort of thing. They wouldn't take the PCs' word for any of it. It would have to be confirmed through their own agencies. So if the party's cleric whipped out a zone of truth spell, well la-dee-dah. How does your generic judge know he's on the up and up? Furthermore, if a member of the party is the son of a traitor, how do we know they aren't collaborators? Maybe we should just lock them all up.

Secondly, who is to say the guy ISN'T guilty (or at least believes he is). There are plenty of mind altering spells available (charm, suggestion, etc.), and thus he could very well have done the deed. Even under duress, would a zone of truth detect this? I don't believe so (I could be wrong on this count). Detect charm would, but only if the charm is still under effect. If it isn't (and why would it be), then the players are back at square one. That same dominate will spell that the wizard can use to wrest the truth from someone could also be used to make them an (un)willing accomplice.

Furthermore, a charge of treason is a pretty hefty thing, and can bring a real stain to the family's honor. If found guilty, he is probably doomed to the gallows (followed by drawing and quartering the body). If he's an accessory to treason, he's got a date with the headsman. Is the man of noble standing? If not, I would say giving the man a chance to prove his innocence is being quite generous in a medieval fantasy setting. If he is of noble birth, and you are feeling generous, he could be exciled, his lands and holdings seized by the crown. This all depends on your campaign, naturally.

As for why there would be trials when these spells are available? Because law enforcement isn't going to expend these resources on minor infractions. They are not going to interrogate every pick pocket in the city to track down a stolen locket. In fact, unless the pick pocket was caught in the act, they might not do anything at all. (Not so different from law enforcement today. Ever had your car broken into?) Most courts are going to be handling civil disputes, and if a known assassin is caught, the chances of him getting a trial are pretty slim.

Don't put the laws in the context of today, with jurisprudence, the ACLU, and Maranda rights. The PCs are going to have to prove the man was not guilty without a shadow of doubt, not the other way around.

Anyway, I hope some of that helps.

Tom

 

[LordMelquiades]

OK, magical divination I can see--but clerical or divinely granted divination--? How do you deceive a god?

It depends on our Rat Bastard Friend DM's gameworld, but arguably it is not a case of deceiving a god, as much as deceiving the caster. Clerical spells do not necessarily and always come direct from the god, and even if they do, the cleric is a mere mortal, a weak and foolish shell barely capable of receiving the god's gift, let alone using it properly and interpreting the results correctly.

"And you will know my name is the Lord, as I lay my vengeance upon thee!"