D&D 5E A question for the 5e Experts about the Monk class

[CapnZapp]

One of the Way of Four Elements monk's major weaknesses is that it doesn't get enough ki points to power its abilities. If you're tacking on another subclass as well, you'll burn through them even faster.

Exactly.

I'm flabbergasted one could think any class could get better by being saddled with Four Elements!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Just use this group effort fan-revised version of Way of the Four Elements. Click on “made another” to get to the 3 page pdf—sorry I don’t have a better link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/6fqrw8/way_of_four_elements_remastered_again/

 

[psychophipps]

Has anyone crunched the numbers to see what the math was for the powers? If we could get a baseline you could make all sorts of crazy Wuxia powers like theose great Jademan comics in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

[Li Shenron]

Mmm... why is everyone saying that the Monk doesn't have enough Ki points?

I haven't seen a Monk in play yet, so I have no practical experience to back up any opinion. But with an amount of Ki equal to your level, most basic tricks costing just 1 Ki point, and even the Four Elements spells costing 1-2 Ki (those you get at 3rd level) or 3-4 Ki (those you get at 6th level), but most importantly Ki is regained on a short rest... it doesn't sound too little for me. Or would you expect a Monk to be able to use a special ability each round in order to be competitive with other characters?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not The Monk, just the Way of the four elements, which depends on powers that are expensive to use, and could easily (if they had them) burn through 20 ki points in a single short skirmish.

 

[Li Shenron]

Not The Monk, just the Way of the four elements, which depends on powers that are expensive to use, and could easily (if they had them) burn through 20 ki points in a single short skirmish.

Well, as I haven't seen a Monk in play yet, I trust your experience... to me it seemed reasonable for a WotFE Monk to be able to use a couple of spells per encounter, similar to what a Warlock does (since they are both short-rest based classes), at least until level 10 or so. I was of the opinion that the problem was in the actual power of those spells (e.g. Fireball at level 11, when normal spellcasters get it at level 5) rather than the amount of times they can be used.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

An Eldritch Knight doesn't get fireball until level 13, so that's not the issue.


But a Level 13 EK has 4/3/2 spell slots plus cantrips, when the monk has 13 Ki points, which is worth about 2/1/2, and Elemental Attunement falls well short of many cantrips.

The problem arises because Ki points progress linearly whilst spell slots progress exponentially. Compare to Psi Points on the UA mystic, which are designed to progress like spell slots.

The linier progression is okay for sorcerers and most monks, as the points are just being used to modify an buff other abilities. But when they are used to fuel primary attacks they aren't enough.


As I suggested earlier, the easiest fix is for the DM to provide the Pot4E monk with a magic item that boosts ki points.

 

[CapnZapp]

Another commonly discussed fix for the 4E monk is to lower all the ki costs by one.

Yes, like that. Yes, it's a massive reduction. Yes, it really is that weak, that such a drastic measure is still balanced.

 

[jaelis]

Well, as I haven't seen a Monk in play yet, I trust your experience... to me it seemed reasonable for a WotFE Monk to be able to use a couple of spells per encounter, similar to what a Warlock does (since they are both short-rest based classes), at least until level 10 or so. I was of the opinion that the problem was in the actual power of those spells (e.g. Fireball at level 11, when normal spellcasters get it at level 5) rather than the amount of times they can be used.

A ki-less monk doesn't really have something equivalent to eldritch blast to fall back on.

But the main thing is Stunning Strike. As written, none of the 4E disciplines use your ki as effectively as stunning strike does. There are exceptions: when you need crowd control, or when you are stuck with ranged attacks. But they aren't good enough to make you actually competent at crowd control or ranged combat, so you anyway have to rely on other characters to fill in that gap and in the end you're probably just better saving your ki for the next fight where you can use Stunning Strike

 

[Staffan]

A ki-less monk doesn't really have something equivalent to eldritch blast to fall back on.

Yes, they do. It's called "Attack". It lets them hit twice (at level 5+) dealing about 1d8+Dex damage, and then a third time for 1d6+Dex damage. The range leaves something to be desired though.