D&D 5E A question for the 5e Experts about the Monk class

[Li Shenron]

A ki-less monk doesn't really have something equivalent to eldritch blast to fall back on.

That's why I asked if people expects the Monk to be able to use Ki each round.

When Ki is depleted, if I read it correctly the Monk falls back to using her bonus action for an extra unarmed strike. That's not as powerful as an extra attack because the damage is only 1d4+mod, but it's still roughly like "half an extra attack" each round.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Way of the Four Elements is weak, and their ki costs and effects don't make them worthwhile most of the times. But in general, monks get plenty of ki.

Ki is a short rest resource. I know many groups don't get as many short rests as the design intent, but that's those groups' issue--it doesn't mean the game hands out too little ki.

But a Level 13 EK has 4/3/2 spell slots plus cantrips, when the monk has 13 Ki points, which is worth about 2/1/2, and Elemental Attunement falls well short of many cantrips.

Yes. But this means that a monk with 2 short rests effectively has 6/3/6 for spell slot equivalents. That's plenty of power even if ki costs aren't reduced.

Yes, they do. It's called "Attack". It lets them hit twice (at level 5+) dealing about 1d8+Dex damage, and then a third time for 1d6+Dex damage. The range leaves something to be desired though.

I agree; their Attack action is pretty nice, and the damage just keeps on scaling. The ki they get is fine, Way of the Four Elements just isn't using it well.

Here's a better link to the remastered version, with author discussions. The current version (of the simplified 3-pager) appears to be 3.1.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5togi8/way_of_the_four_elements_remastered_reformatted/

 

[UngeheuerLich]

An Eldritch Knight doesn't get fireball until level 13, so that's not the issue.


But a Level 13 EK has 4/3/2 spell slots plus cantrips, when the monk has 13 Ki points, which is worth about 2/1/2, and Elemental Attunement falls well short of many cantrips.

The problem arises because Ki points progress linearly whilst spell slots progress exponentially. Compare to Psi Points on the UA mystic, which are designed to progress like spell slots.

The linier progression is okay for sorcerers and most monks, as the points are just being used to modify an buff other abilities. But when they are used to fuel primary attacks they aren't enough.


As I suggested earlier, the easiest fix is for the DM to provide the Pot4E monk with a magic item that boosts ki points.

And then you remember that ki points recharge on a short rest so you ideally multiply it by 3.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Way of the Four Elements is weak, and their ki costs and effects don't make them worthwhile most of the times. But in general, monks get plenty of ki.

Ki is a short rest resource. I know many groups don't get as many short rests as the design intent, but that's those groups' issue--it doesn't mean the game hands out too little ki.



Yes. But this means that a monk with 2 short rests effectively has 6/3/6 for spell slot equivalents. That's plenty of power even if ki costs aren't reduced.



I agree; their Attack action is pretty nice, and the damage just keeps on scaling. The ki they get is fine, Way of the Four Elements just isn't using it well.

Here's a better link to the remastered version, with author discussions. The current version (of the simplified 3-pager) appears to be 3.1.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5togi8/way_of_the_four_elements_remastered_reformatted/

I am sorry. Bit that elemental monk is unbalanced to the other side. There has to be a middle ground.

 

[jgsugden]

For those that have not played a 4E monk and wish to understand the issues better: Before reading further, make an 11th level 4 Element monk. 1 very rare item of your choice, 1 rare item, 3 uncommon. 4 4d4+4 healing potions.

Now, run the series of battles below against it solo with no rest between the battles. Run the monsters intelligently, but have them engage the monk directly. No fly away and pelt from the sky tactics... Use a forest with some rocks, trees, etc... present for the setting.

These are all just under the hard threshold for a solo 11th level PC - although the last one is a bit tougher than the technical definition says it is.

First, Berserker (450 XP), 3 Brown Bears (600 XP) and 2 Boars (100 XP) - 1150, just shy of the 1200 for a 6 creature hard encounter.

Second, Saber-Tooth Tiger (450 XP) and Orc War Chief (1100 XP), 1550 - which is 50 xp shy of the hard threshold for 2 monster encounters.

Finally, Young White Dragon (2300 XP) which is 100 xp shy of the hard threshold for a solo encounter for one level 11 PC - but it is a dragon, so it is tougher than advertised.

How did you use your Ki? You had about 3 or 4 Ki per combat... Was stun a better option for it than 4E powers? Did you run out of Ki? Did you feel like you could be effective without the Ki?

These three encounters are a gauntlet I created early on in 5E when I wanted to see if playing a PC would be fun later on after it leveled up. So, I advance the PC up to 11th level, then test it out. The PCs do not always survive this gauntlet, but I get a good idea of how fun they'll be. I tried the 4 Element monk and decided it would not be fun for me.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And then you remember that ki points recharge on a short rest so you ideally multiply it by 3.

Not really. If the fight is tough you burn through everything, so it's what you can bring to the tough fight that matters. The fact that you might only have to rest one hour afterwards instead of 8 doesn't help you win.

The Warlock gets away with it because most of their power is based on cantrips and invocations. 4E Monk can't really match that.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not really. If the fight is tough you burn through everything, so it's what you can bring to the tough fight that matters. The fact that you might only have to rest one hour afterwards instead of 8 doesn't help you win.

The Warlock gets away with it because most of their power is based on cantrips and invocations. 4E Monk can't really match that.

That is an encounter design problem if all your fights are like that. The system at its whole suffers then. If you notice that in your ganes its all about the one big fight, either change your rest system or just change all short rest powers to 3 per day bit not more than 1 per turn.

In my games the eldritch knight also punched way above his level because there was only one fight that mattered on a regular basis. (Nearly unlimited shield spell mainly). After I made long rest only after a full day of rest, my players managed their resources better because they didn't know when the next possible day break might occur.
For your game the solution might be different, but under the assimption of 6-8 combats per adventuring day (which honestly was some miscalculation in my opinion) the balance is give or take quite sound.
The monk also brings enough offensive power with him to stand his ground. Usually one fireball should be sufficient to clear <1 minions. The rest of his ki points should be used to stunlock a high priority target. Could the 4e monk need some better balance. Yes. More ki points or much cheaper spells? No.
Maybe a few 1/day powers like tranquility would do the trick. Maybe that was the best solution for higher level spells. 1/day fireball or 1/day stoneskin as ki-less extra would not unbalance 6-8 encounter days while allowing you to bring out something extra in boss fights.
I am happy that the 4e monk is irrelevant for this discussion

 

[UngeheuerLich]

snip

Cool idea. Just as a reminder: the 4e monk is the only one that can actually stand against the white dragon because he can fly up to jim while the other monks will only be able to hide if they did not happen to chose an item that allows them to fly.
Is it enough to make the 4element monk a useful choice? Maybe not. I'd say he gets better at level 15 when his fly spell won't end because of lost concentration.
After all I don't really see what the open hand monk really brings to the table. 33 more hp per day? He is a bit more mobile due to reaction taking. His second flurry attack migh be with advantage because he brought the enemy to the ground. A stunned target alway grants advantage and has no reaction. Pushing away frees you from grabs... i think stuns also do that. So while all those abilities don't cost extra ki, they won't help a lot in many cases. And again, I think the 4element monk could use little tweaks bit no overreaction.

 

[jgsugden]

Cool idea. Just as a reminder: the 4e monk is the only one that can actually stand against the white dragon because he can fly up to jim while the other monks will only be able to hide if they did not happen to chose an item that allows them to fly.

I addressed this by suggesting that they specifically not fly around and zap from above.

I said: Run the monsters intelligently, but have them engage the monk directly. No fly away and pelt from the sky tactics...

....After all I don't really see what the open hand monk really brings to the table. .... And again, I think the 4element monk could use little tweaks bit no overreaction.

Play the 4 Element version of the monk and see how often you use the 'elements' that come from the Order. It is going to be quite rare - even rarer than in my exercise as you'll have other team members that are better at sweeping out enemies than you are so you won't have as much of a need to use a fireball, thunderwave, etc...

This is one of those situations where people that do not see the problem probably have not played the class.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That is an encounter design problem if all your fights are like that. The system at its whole suffers then. If you notice that in your ganes its all about the one big fight, either change your rest system or just change all short rest powers to 3 per day bit not more than 1 per turn.

In my games the eldritch knight also punched way above his level because there was only one fight that mattered on a regular basis. (Nearly unlimited shield spell mainly). After I made long rest only after a full day of rest, my players managed their resources better because they didn't know when the next possible day break might occur.
For your game the solution might be different, but under the assimption of 6-8 combats per adventuring day (which honestly was some miscalculation in my opinion) the balance is give or take quite sound.
The monk also brings enough offensive power with him to stand his ground. Usually one fireball should be sufficient to clear <1 minions. The rest of his ki points should be used to stunlock a high priority target. Could the 4e monk need some better balance. Yes. More ki points or much cheaper spells? No.
Maybe a few 1/day powers like tranquility would do the trick. Maybe that was the best solution for higher level spells. 1/day fireball or 1/day stoneskin as ki-less extra would not unbalance 6-8 encounter days while allowing you to bring out something extra in boss fights.
I am happy that the 4e monk is irrelevant for this discussion

Thing is, if you have lots of small fights, the 4E monk will gradually burn through Ki boosting flurry of blows, and will never ever use any of those inefficient spells.