D&D 5E What Makes 5E "5E"?

[Reynard]

In another thread, I said that what makes a game "5E' was deeper than just rolling a d20 plus some mods and advantage and disadvantage. I mentioned that I thought people sometimes did this with Shadowdark.

When @payn asked to know more, I had to pause and really think about it.

Instead of writing a long dissertation on the subject, i thought I would open it up so we could actually all talk about it. What makes 5E specifically 5E (as opposed to simple Dungeons and Dragons, or just another fantasy RPG.)

For me, I think it has to do with the specific mix of medium complexity and relatively high competence of characters, along the the ingrained "natural language" and "rulings not rules" framework. There are a lot of assumptions about lore and setting and stuff that I don't think are really that strongly part of it (you could make a 5E game that feels like 5E with completely different races, classes, monsters and assumptions). I do think the inherent predictability, power and versatility of magic is also important. it is a carry over from earlier editions, of course, but it is fundamental to 5E I think.

What do you think. What elements of 5E make it 5E. Are there other games built on the 5E chassis that you feel "are" or "aren't" 5E?

 

[TiQuinn]

I think it’s the bounded accuracy, non-stacking bonuses, concentration and the advantage/disadvantage mechanic that stand out as the differentiators to me.

 

[payn]

Nice thread!

5E is a melting pot of TTRPG ideas over the last 50 years. I think of it like the Goldilocks edition. For me, papa bear, there isnt enough to the skill system, feats, prestige classes, crit threat ranges, resolution mechanics, etc.. Though, bounded accuracy has been on my want list for a long time, and I do like the streamlined approach for other players. You know the baby bears out there.

I think that is what 5E does best is play to the middle. It allows all sorts of styles, but specializes in none. For most people its just the right amount, but die hards are left wanting more. However, the compromise for die hards isnt that difficult to make, bringing the game back to the middle. "Everyone's second favorite edition" is the line I often think of because 5E is the place to settle; and its the best place since '74.

Being that I dont find 5E complex enough for (my) generic fantasy, nor do I like the system for specific bespoke gaming, I dont really play any 5E spin offs. Part of that is overdose from the D20 era in 2000's. I have come to appreciate various systems for what they bring to the table. I have also come to believe D&D is just D&D now and not TTRPGs in general. For example, when I use DCC, I play for old school skill play. When I use Call of Cthulhu, I play for horror fiction narrative. When I use 5E, its to play D&D. Thats something I haven't really been able to say since the 90's (and I say that as someone who likes 3E/PF1 as their favorite fantasy RPG to date).

 

[J-H]

Bounded accuracy and simplicity. Martials are useful all the way up to 20, and although magic items are helpful (especially for martials), no specific magic items are required to function, unlike 3.5 or (I hear) 4e.

 

[TiQuinn]

Nice thread!

5E is a melting pot of TTRPG ideas over the last 50 years. I think of it like the Goldilocks edition. For me, papa bear, there isnt enough to the skill system, feats, prestige classes, crit threat ranges, resolution mechanics, etc.. Though, bounded accuracy has been on my want list for a long time, and I do like the streamlined approach for other players. You know the baby bears out there.

I think that is what 5E does best is play to the middle. It allows all sorts of styles, but specializes in none. For most people its just the right amount, but die hards are left wanting more. However, the compromise for die hards isnt that difficult to make, bringing the game back to the middle. "Everyone's second favorite edition" is the line I often think of because 5E is the place to settle; and its the best place since '74.

Being that I dont find 5E complex enough for (my) generic fantasy, nor do I like the system for specific bespoke gaming, I dont really play any 5E spin offs. Part of that is overdose from the D20 era in 2000's. I have come to appreciate various systems for what they bring to the table. I have also come to believe D&D is just D&D now and not TTRPGs in general. For example, when I use DCC, I play for old school skill play. When I use Call of Cthulhu, I play for horror fiction narrative. When I use 5E, its to play D&D. Thats something I haven't really been able to say since the 90's (and I say that as someone who likes 3E/PF1 as their favorite fantasy RPG to date).

Yeah, can't disagree with any of that. I think it's a system that I can keep coming back to because I know it well now, and those core mechanics work really well. OTOH, there's a bit of stagnation there as the same mechanics come about over and over (looking at you, advantage/disadvantage) but in keeping with another thread, I'm looking to 3PP to provide new ideas on the basic 5e chassis.

 

[MichaelSomething]

What about the conflict between short and long rest classes?

The super hero power levels?

A design that has to cater to different groups with conflicting ideals on TTRPG play?

And design by survey??

 

[Deset Gled]

Lots of good stuff above. One specific point I'll offer is a lowered dependency on ability scores. Another is PCs being harder to kill, due to both much more available healing and forgiving death rules. One fuzzier point I'll throw into the mix is that 5e characters "come of age" much earlier.

To explain to last point: if I was playing AD&D or 3.x and I had a specific build in mind (say, a Master Archer or a Specialist Wizard), I would expect that levels 1~11 would be the levels where the character is learning and building towards that goal. A fully developed character build really starts somewhere (roughly) around level ~12, and becomes more notable as they head to 20.

Conversely, a character in 5e is basically a fully fledged caster or seasoned warrior by around level ~6. There's still progression after that, but it's not the same building-towards-a-goal progression. Frankly, there are level 1 "backgrounds" in 5e2024 that feel like they could be 3 levels of multiclassing in other editions.

Whether you consider this a feature or a bug is, of course, a matter of taste.

 

[AK81]

For me the most important things that makes 5e feel like 5e is:
(And many of these also works for other editions and clones too, but I still think they are fundamental to 5e)
-d20 + modifiers vs a DC (the most important thing)
-advantage/disadvantage
-classes with subclasses
-ascending AC
-all the dice! d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20
- levels

Edit: I forgot to put in Bounded Accuracy. But that is also essential for 5e

Things that is important, but I think you can do without and still feel like 5e:
- skill list
- proficiency
- species/ancestry selection
- a deep magic system (probably spell slots, but I have played with their mana system too)
- magic items

Things that I don't necessarily think you need to feel like 5e:
- Super Heroic PC's
- medium crunch (I think the crunch level can go both up and down and still be 5e)

I think that many dnd branches are 5e, from a5e, Adventures in middle-earth and even Shadowdark + many many 3pp rulesets in different genres.

 

[Corinnguard]

Are there other games built on the 5E chassis that you feel "are" or "aren't" 5E?

Level Up: Advanced 5e. Definitely 5e, but with some significant improvements for those of us who want 5e to have a little more crunch to it. I don't think I need to get into it here again because I have been doing it on the EN World forums for the last three plus years.

 

[payn]

Level Up: Advanced 5e. Definitely 5e, but with some significant improvements for those of us who want 5e to have a little more crunch to it. I don't think I need to get into it here again because I have been doing it on the EN World forums for the last three plus years.

If I play a 5E game again, im gonna try and make it A5E.