Reynard
aka Ian Eller
The rules in the 2014 DMG are explicit: the PC has to tell you what they are doing before they get to make the check.
D&D 5E (2014) What Makes 5E "5E"?
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
That is how I do skill checks.
At the same time, @Malmuria has a point. The chain reaction
Wisdom (Passive Perception) → Intelligence (Investigation) → Dexterity (Thieves Tools / Slight)
doesnt leave much room for narrative agency.
I kinda run monsters that way. Similarly, monsters respond to illusions by player characters in an automated way. I want a "neutral" method to determine if a monster "decides" to interact with the illusion, and sometimes that means a Passive Investigation check followed by a Wisdom save.
I try to deal with Passive Perception by giving a sensorial detail, such as a visual description noticing a book case is set inside the wall, without making it clear that it is a secret door.
I think you can run 5e in a way that centers rulings over rules; 5e definitely took inspiration from the OSR on that front. I just doubt that rulings over rules play (for example, largely eschewing ability/skill checks) is the norm in 5e play culture. It's not part of what makes 5e "5e." In fact, if I were to describe how an OSR game is different from 5e to someone, I would emphasize things like rulings over rules, the answer is not on your character sheet, etc.
Reynard
aka Ian Eller
That isn't true. Remember the first principles of 5E design: the GM presents the situation, the PC(s) describe their action, and the GM decides whether or not to ask for a ability check.
THAT is narrative agency.
GM: You see a short hallway [presents the situation]
P: I search for traps [describes their action]
GM: ok, make a perception check [call for ability check]
Corinnguard
Hero
I don't think you'll need to wait for 6e to fix 5e's shortcomings. Level Up probably has fixed some of them by now.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
That is what I mean by "narrative adjudication".
But I know DMs who allow their players say stuff like, "I roll Persuasion to see if I can get the guard to let us thru the door".
It wouldnt happen when I DM tho. The players would have to come up with a specific way that might plausibly convince a guard. Be it a specific bribe, flirtation, deception like pretending to be people sent from a superior, some kind of bargain, or whatever, only then might the tactic be convincing or not, and the DM determines how likely.
This narrative adjudication, in other words, the yes-no-maybe method, makes the dice roll only happen if the narrative action doesnt automatically or automatically fail. Many times, the players come up with a good idea that pretty much automatically works. Or oppositely, an idea that sounds so implausible there is no point to see if it might work, it autofails.
Thus the 5e yes-no-maybe is "rulings (= narrative plausibility) not rules (dice rolls)".
Reynard
aka Ian Eller
I am pretty forgiving when it comes to social interactions, specifically. A lot of players aren't necessarily good "actors" and I think it is enough for them to give me approach and intent.
Reynard
aka Ian Eller
Or
GM: Cool, that works.
Or
GM: uh oh, roll a dex save
Or
GM: can you tell me more specifically...
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Maybe detecting traps is a less good example for normal 5e play?
Old school style of 10-foot poles or sending a flock of chickens ahead to trigger any traps, or worrying about ear seekers if listening at a door, is less fun for most players. So 5e intentionally skips over that part.
But using Passive Perception to discover hidden treasure or so on, would cause many DMs to be much less permissive.
