D&D 5E What Makes 5E "5E"?

[Malmuria]

Old school style of 10 foot polls or sending a flock of chickens ahead to trigger any traps, or worrying about ear seekers if listening at a door, is less fun for most players. So 5e intentionally skips over that part.

Right, so that's all I'm really saying here. There's a type of gameplay that 5e players don't find fun, and so 5e skips over that part. You can go around searching for traps with a 10 foot poll, relying on GM adjudication over skill rolls, but contemporary players tend to not like that and thus skip over that part. It's not what makes 5e, "5e."

 

[Chaltab]

Generally speaking passive Perception is supposed to be something to keep from accidental spoilers. You roll against the players' passive perceptions instead of checking actively so the players aren't tipped off to a surprise encounter you asking for the perception check.

I wouldn't use it for hidden treasure unless it was essential for the party to continue the quest.

 

[Reynard]

Right, so that's all I'm really saying here. There's a type of gameplay that 5e players don't find fun, and so 5e skips over that part. You can go around searching for traps with a 10 foot poll, relying on GM adjudication over skill rolls, but contemporary players tend to not like that and thus skip over that part. It's not what makes 5e, "5e."

5E doesn't eliminate player skill gaming. It gives the GM the tools to decide. That's literally the definition of "rulings over rules."

 

[Malmuria]

5E doesn't eliminate player skill gaming. It gives the GM the tools to decide. That's literally the definition of "rulings over rules."

Yes, the GM can ignore the mechanical structure of the rules, including things like perception and investigation skills. They could sub in player skill type play from OSR games. They could sub in "success with consequence" mechanics from pbta games. But I don't think either of those cases says anything meaningful about what makes 5e, "5e."

I really don't think rulings over rules or player skill over character skill are core parts of 5e or common in 5e gameplay. When I run OSR games for my 5e friends one of the first things they stumble upon is how the answer is not on their character sheet, even for normal task resolution. There is no investigation skill, no intimidation skill; they have to describe how their character is searching, or have their character say something intimidating. If any dice are rolled to resolve the task, it's usually on the GM's side and decided upon in an ad hoc fashion outside the explicit rules (is it x-in-6? Or maybe I'll roll 2d6? etc). Those differences are what makes that game not-5e.

 

[Reynard]

I really don't think rulings over rules or player skill over character skill are core parts of 5e or common in 5e gameplay.

Because you are using narrow OSR definitions of those terms.

5E is explicit in both the 2014 and 2024 DMGs that the DM decides when rolls are made and how to interpret rules. That's the definition of rulings over rules.

 

[Malmuria]

Because you are using narrow OSR definitions of those terms.

5E is explicit in both the 2014 and 2024 DMGs that the DM decides when rolls are made and how to interpret rules. That's the definition of rulings over rules.

Yet, in practice, players know that they have an intimidation score, they know which player has the highest intimidation score, and they expect the DM to allow them to use it rather than, say, coming up with a 2d6 reaction roll and subbing that into their games because of 'rule 0.' That's why play culture is important to consider when describing what makes 5e, "5e." Or, I guess, on a strict reading of rule 0 you could accept that "5e" has no meaningful identity, because the DM can always ignore all the rules, in which case your original question is moot.

 

[Iosue]

Look, I know you didn't write it, but I really hate that Old School Primer example, because the "Modern Style" play is written in a way I've never played, nor ever seen anyone play.

1000% agreed, and I’m someone who loves and advocates for “old style” play.

 

[Yaarel]

Rule zero means the DM has the authority to modify the official rules of the game. In other words, homebrew new rules or use rules from an indy product. Rule zero isnt something that happens on the fly.

Players also need to agree to any new rules. Often, the DM and players decide together how the game will play during session zero. Sometimes, the new rules are decided on later if a particular issue becomes unexpectedly apparent. Either way, there is a shared expectation for how the game will play from that point on.

Adjudicating the scenario of an encounter is part of running the game. It is a job description for a DM, according to the rules as written. Rule zero is something different.

 

[Oofta]

That isn't true. Remember the first principles of 5E design: the GM presents the situation, the PC(s) describe their action, and the GM decides whether or not to ask for a ability check.

THAT is narrative agency.

There is no one true way and the rules just give suggestions in many cases. How do you describe that you want to know about some symbol when it could be a history or religion check? It could even be an investigation check to notice a hidden pattern or a perception check to see that someone is trying to obscure a different symbol?

It may add value to your game to go into detail on how someone disarm a trap but I've had a DM that turned it into "If you know what the DM wants to hear it works, otherwise it fails. "

That is why they emphasize rulings over rules. So if a DM and group is okay with "I search for traps" or "Insight check?" then that becomes the rule at the table.

 

[Yaarel]

I really don't think rulings over rules or player skill over character skill are core parts of 5e or common in 5e gameplay. When I run OSR games for my 5e friends one of the first things they stumble upon is how the answer is not on their character sheet, even for normal task resolution. There is no investigation skill, no intimidation skill; they have to describe how their character is searching, or have their character say something intimidating. If any dice are rolled to resolve the task, it's usually on the GM's side and decided upon in an ad hoc fashion outside the explicit rules (is it x-in-6? Or maybe I'll roll 2d6? etc). Those differences are what makes that game not-5e.

This distinction is more about DM style, rather than about editions of rules. Ok, it seems fair to say, "the answer isnt on character sheet" for old school editions. But how a DM uses the stats on a new school character sheet depends on DM style.

The new school "yes-no-maybe" DM style still requires the player character to "say something intimidating", and to "describe HOW" a character searches. How the DM applies the numbers of the skill checks is ad hoc, and modifiable, depending on their plausibility within the particular situation.