A question of Perception...

[Wolvie1977]

Hello there !!

I'll explain my "question" by 2 examples :

The party arrive at a corridor, 30 square away from a door where 2 guards
are standing there, waiting.
The first one have a Passive Perception of 15, the other 24 (they call him long-ear john).

SITUATION #1
The party walk, whispering, for the door. The DC would be DC31 (DC20 for whispering (as the Player Book says) + 6 at 30 squares (I'm taking the rule for distance as +2 for EACH 10 squares) + 5 for the door). As they approache, the DC would drop at DC25 at the door, so they reach the door quietly but with absolutely no effort. They can surprised the guards...

SITUATION #2
The rogue want to STEALTH for the door. The DC to hear him approach would be, as the Master Book says, Stealth check + 6 for the distance + 5 for the door. With a STEALTH bonus of +5, he try to sneak at the door. At 30 squares, he roll a 14 (dice 9+5), DC is now 25 (14+6+5). At 20 square another roll, he got 8 (3+5) !! DC is now 17 (8+4+5)!! The guard know something is wrong because he heard noise from behind the door... they will not be surprised...

So, what do you think of the Perception "system"?? I like the idea of having a Passive Skill score, like Perception, but the way it turn when sneaking at a door... not that it is a BIG concern, since it is just a game and rules are there for guidelines, but still, we are losing many precious minutes each session arguing about these kind of situations.

What's your idea about that ??
Did I miss something in the books ?

Thank you !! 8)

 

[Erisea]

I don't have my books with me to check what it actually says, but if the party are walking to the door, then they are not just just whispering. If they all try to move quietly, they all need to take stealth checks, and the lowest of these is the DC for the guards. If they aren't trying to move quietly, I would probably assume a Passive Stealth check, i.e. 10+ the lowest stealth modifier, which is probably quite poor for some of the party.

 

[Wolvie1977]

Well, all the idea of the PASSIVE STEALTH bug me.

Passive Skills are supposed to be when you are not ACTIVELY doing something, and I don't really see how you can passively be stealthy : you are trying or not. Passive, for me, suits better with History, Insight, Perception or all kind of Knowledge...

BUT, I must admit that it would suit very well for that kind of situation. But it leads me to another observation : in the Master guide, under COMBAT FUNDAMENTALS, it is said :

"Do the monsters hear the PCs approach ?"
"If the PCs are moving at NORMAL SPEED through the dungeon and making NO ATTEMPT at stealth, monsters in a room behind a door hear them with a DC 25 Perception check (active or passive). If the PCs are quiet, the PCs make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus (to account for the muffling effect of the door) to set the monster's Perception DC."

I did followed that rule for my example, and you saw what it did (the stealthy rogue who took the effort to be stealthy was discovered, but not the party who did nothing...)

Why would I tried to be stealthy following that rule ?

The party just have to walk, whispering, and anybody behind a door will have a DC25, even if in the party there's a full plated Paladin. If that same party try to be stealthy, which means be even MORE QUIET than not TRYING to, they are sure to be discovered because of that -2 to stealth the Paladin got...

...do you follow my point ?
I know it seems complex, but it's simply that it is almost useless to have a rogue sneak to a door when i got more chance to be detected than an entire Full Plated group.

I think it is time for a good House rule here... what do you think ?

 

[DracoSuave]

It IS dc 20+mods to hear the whispering. Yes. But are they moving more than 2 squares a turn? -5. So now it's DC 15 to hear them whispering.

But that doesn't matter, as the monsters don't have to hear their whispers when their footsteps are louder. The roll is Perception vs. Stealth if the party is being stealthy. If not? No roll is done, the monsters notice. If the party is being stealthy but carrying a light source? No roll is done for the character holding the torch. He gets noticed.

 

[Wolvie1977]

You've got your way, neither good or bad since it a game, but I'm not satisfied with that method. Even while not trying to be stealthy, if I am in a closed room and someone is coming at the door at NORMAL PACE, I'll not notice them at 100' (20 square * 5').

Your way is more like an House rule, since it is following the REAL rule, as a group CAN be non stealthy and STIL HAVE A CHANCE to go un-notice... and how will you determined at which distance the "monsters" discover the party if they are not stealthy ? You are saying that they automatically notice, OK, but when/where ? 30' ? 10' ?

Also, all is written in the PHB and MHB to work these "encounter" without being stealthy or not, just like the example I gave you :

"If the PCs are MOVING at NORMAL SPEED through the dungeon and making NO ATTEMPT at stealth, monsters in a room behind a door hear them with a DC 25 Perception check (active or passive). If the PCs are quiet, the PCs make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus (to account for the muffling effect of the door) to set the monster's Perception DC."

DC is so high for a non stealthy group, it is easy for a starting group to have a MUCH lesser DC by sneaking (as my first example explain)...

Any other ideas how to "rule" these situations ?

 

[DracoSuave]

Well obviously the DC for it won't be higher than an average stealth check. DC 25 is rediculous as a base. DC 10 for a non-stealthy group is more appropriate, modified by barriers.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Also, all is written in the PHB and MHB to work these "encounter" without being stealthy or not, just like the example I gave you :

"If the PCs are MOVING at NORMAL SPEED through the dungeon and making NO ATTEMPT at stealth, monsters in a room behind a door hear them with a DC 25 Perception check (active or passive). If the PCs are quiet, the PCs make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus (to account for the muffling effect of the door) to set the monster's Perception DC."

Where is that quote from? I'd look for a correction in the eratta if I had the book and page number. If it's not already eratta'd I'd expect it to be.

The problem is in the calculation of situation 1. If the party is already standing at the door and wispering, then the DC 25 seems fine. If they are moving then it's going to be DC10 - 5 for movement, + lowest modifier (accounts for armor), plus distance, plus 5 for the door. Without collecting the group's info, DC 10 to hear someone with 'no attempt at stealth' on the other side of a door.

 

[Milambus]

SITUATION #2
The rogue want to STEALTH for the door. The DC to hear him approach would be, as the Master Book says, Stealth check + 6 for the distance + 5 for the door. With a STEALTH bonus of +5, he try to sneak at the door. At 30 squares, he roll a 14 (dice 9+5), DC is now 25 (14+6+5). At 20 square another roll, he got 8 (3+5) !! DC is now 17 (8+4+5)!! The guard know something is wrong because he heard noise from behind the door... they will not be surprised...

Umm, why does your rogue only have a +5 to stealth? Stealth should be training + dex + 1/2 level. So for a level 1 rogue, it should be 5 + 4ish + 0 = 9 modifier.

And well, if he rolls a 3, then he wasn't very successful at being sneaky in the first place.

 

[Wolvie1977]

Thank you all for your reply.
I'll try to answer to each of you :

Well obviously the DC for it won't be higher than an average stealth check. DC 25 is rediculous as a base. DC 10 for a non-stealthy group is more appropriate, modified by barriers.

You are right, DC 10 plus modifiers would have change everything for my example, still, the rules said DC25 because they take the "whispers" line for calculating the DC, making DC20 +5 = DC25... but I agree that DC10 + modifers would suit better (DC10 like Normal conversation + modifiers). Might take that "House rule" for moving party who doesn't make stealthy effort.

Where is that quote from? I'd look for a correction in the eratta if I had the book and page number. If it's not already eratta'd I'd expect it to be.

The problem is in the calculation of situation 1. If the party is already standing at the door and wispering, then the DC 25 seems fine. If they are moving then it's going to be DC10 - 5 for movement, + lowest modifier (accounts for armor), plus distance, plus 5 for the door. Without collecting the group's info, DC 10 to hear someone with 'no attempt at stealth' on the other side of a door.

Well, the rules was taken from the MASTER BOOK, p37, and no errata on that one. It is TEXTUALLY written that way.

As for YOUR rule, well I think it is going in the same way as DRACOSUAVE, DC10 plus modifiers... but I notice that you likely measure it like a STEALTH check, which is not.

The -5 for moving more than 2 squares apply for a STEALTH attempt, and is not describe anywhere else in both guide. Same thing for the armor, apply only for a skill check... but I THE RULE, there's NO CHECK for "MOVING at NORMAL SPEED through the dungeon and making NO ATTEMPT at stealth" party (who gets autaumatically DC25.

BUT STILL, I really like your way, I just wanted to say AGAIN that this rule just doen't work... and I would likely put your idea in my HOUSE RULE.

Umm, why does your rogue only have a +5 to stealth? Stealth should be training + dex + 1/2 level. So for a level 1 rogue, it should be 5 + 4ish + 0 = 9 modifier.

And well, if he rolls a 3, then he wasn't very successful at being sneaky in the first place.

Well, you are right !! Let say the rogue has a +7 on is check (2 for DEX and 5 for training), and he roll a 6, which make 13, + 6 distance (19), +5 door (24)... he is still discovered at 30 squares (150' !!!!)... but not a aprty who makes no attempt if we follow the rule... you understand.

I know that the roll was "bad", but still, how a party who makes NO ATTEMPT AUTOMATICALLY will succeed, but not a rogue who get stealthy...? That is the point...

Thanks all for your ideas, I think we might hold something good... any other ideas or opinions ??

 

[Kordeth]

The -5 for moving more than 2 squares apply for a STEALTH attempt, and is not describe anywhere else in both guide. Same thing for the armor, apply only for a skill check... but I THE RULE, there's NO CHECK for "MOVING at NORMAL SPEED through the dungeon and making NO ATTEMPT at stealth" party (who gets autaumatically DC25.

If your party of characters is moving at normal speed through the dungeon and making no attempt at stealth, there's no way the base DC to hear them is 25. That's absurd, especially if there are heavily-armored characters with them. A base DC of 10, equivalent to normal conversation, is far more appropriate.