Hello there !!
I'll explain my "question" by 2 examples :
The party arrive at a corridor, 30 square away from a door where 2 guards
are standing there, waiting.
The first one have a Passive Perception of 15, the other 24 (they call him long-ear john).
SITUATION #1
The party walk, whispering, for the door. The DC would be DC31 (DC20 for whispering (as the Player Book says) + 6 at 30 squares (I'm taking the rule for distance as +2 for EACH 10 squares) + 5 for the door). As they approache, the DC would drop at DC25 at the door, so they reach the door quietly but with absolutely no effort. They can surprised the guards...
First: It is +2 total, not +2 for each 10 squares. Making it +2 for every 10 feet is a house rule and not one I think is necessary. But you may disagree (essentially, it just reduces the distance at which the party will be noticed if and when they are noticed). I have used the RAW rule (+2 total) in the following.
But that aside: There are two issues. The players are whispering and the players are moving.
The idea of a passive stealth check (which I support 100% myself) is based upon the presumption (directly analagous to the logic used to justify passive perception) that the players are skilled adventurers and are
always attempting to move stealthily.
Whenever the players are simply moving, they are moving stealthily (treat as a roll of a 10 by the
worst stealth skill in the group.) And then subtract five because they are moving more than 2 squares a round.
In other words: Passive stealth isn't very stealthy (essentially five plus the worst skill in the group). But it gives you a baseline DC value (and if they talk above a whisper while walking that drops the baseline DC roll to 0 plus the worst skill in the group because talking imposes an additional -5).
So - the chance to hear them walking down the corridor is:
(Assuming a -2 for the Paladin as the worst value)
10 - 5 (moving > 2 sq) -2 (Paladin skill) +5 (door) + 2 (distance) = 10. The clanking of the Paladin will easily be heard coming down the corridor. But if they left him behind and only those with positive stealth skills moved down the corridor
or if they decided to move slowly, the odds of not being heard become much greater.
Note: The much higher DC for whispering means nothing more than that
the creatures will not hear them whispering as the much louder clanking or armor and stomping of footsteps drowns out the quiet whispers.
SITUATION #2
The rogue want to STEALTH for the door. The DC to hear him approach would be, as the Master Book says, Stealth check + 6 for the distance + 5 for the door. With a STEALTH bonus of +5, he try to sneak at the door. At 30 squares, he roll a 14 (dice 9+5), DC is now 25 (14+6+5). At 20 square another roll, he got 8 (3+5) !! DC is now 17 (8+4+5)!! The guard know something is wrong because he heard noise from behind the door... they will not be surprised...
Rogue attempts to stealth to the door.
Given a bonus of +7 (as per later posts, although this is still a very low value for a sneaky rogue) and assuming he moves less than two squares per turn, his modifier is +7 +5 (door) + 2 (distance). Because he is not rushed, he takes 10 on this roll and thus the creature on the other side of the door has a Perception DC of 24 (22 once he gets within 10' of the door).
And this is opposed by the creatures passive perception and few or now creatures that a 1st level rogue will face will have passive perceptions that are greater than 20.
In other words - the rogue has no difficulty sneaking up to the door.
This is not far different from your scenario - but you assumed a
passive perception in excess of 24 and I just don't see that happening. Not at the level we are talking about (and if the rogue is sneaking up on a 20th level opponent he has more problems than just being heard).
So, what do you think of the Perception "system"?? I like the idea of having a Passive Skill score, like Perception, but the way it turn when sneaking at a door... not that it is a BIG concern, since it is just a game and rules are there for guidelines, but still, we are losing many precious minutes each session arguing about these kind of situations.
What's your idea about that ??
Did I miss something in the books ?
Thank you !! 8)
I don't see the problem.
In short: If you are whispering
and moving, the fact that you are whispering does not make the movement quieter. It merely means that you don't necessarily have to suffer the -5 penalty for
talking.
Secondly: Remember that the player is facing a passive listener when sneaking up to a door. And thus any result higher than 20 (most likely higher than 15) will be successful.
Thirdly: Don't forget that if they are not rushed they can Take 10 and avoid the low rolls and since this will typically be sufficient they ought to do so (if you are able to slow down to 2 squares per round, you can hardly be thought of as rushed).
Finally, from the PHB:
When you’re not actively using a skill, you’re assumed to be taking 10 for any opposed checks using that skill.
The idea of a passive stealth is a good one and it simply represents the idea that the party is always taking its time and trying to avoid drawing attention to itself. In other words - they are always taking 10 on stealth as they move down the corridors (although unless they are also slowing down to a speed of 2 they are still suffering penalties to the roll) -- And it is something they are always able to do if they bother to tell you they wish to ("Mr. DM, we are always taking 10 for stealth on our movement even if we forget to tell you that we are doing so") since it imposes no penalty to their movement. And thus it is reasonable to assume that seasoned adventurers always are doing so.
Carl
