eyebeams said:
Spear drills are good ways to train trapping range; I'm not aware of any "doctrine" that actually recommends their their use against a spear.
I'm paraphrasing comments made by Chinese fencers from a fencing school in Hong Kong. You can argue with them if you like, I'll be glad to provide you with a URL to the thread, you can chime in and set them strait.
As for jian and dao (snip) The basic assumptions about what kind of engagements you get in with these weapons are makedly different to the point where there is little useful basis for comparison. (snip) Rapiers and their successors are civillian weapons.
I'm well aware of the difference between military and civiliian weapons. That doesn't change the fact that a weapon is either useful or useless in a fight, and realistic full contact, full force sparring is the best way to determine that effectiveness, just as Pride / UFC ended a lot of B.S. about various martial arts techniques. A bastard sword is primarily intended for the battlefield, but it will hold up against specialist civilian weapons such as a rapier or even a smallsword, as well as specialist military weapons such as a battle axe or a halberd. To me that is proof that it is an effective weapon.
And someone who can do forms but doesn't spar will lose in an actual encounter, I have seen that happen on the street more times than I can count.
Without an understanding of the context that belongs to each weapon, comparative statements about their effectiveness are meaningless.
I understand the context, that doesn't change the bottom line. Not all weapons are equal. Not all techniques are equal. The most realistic possible sparring is the best way to evauluate one against another.
Uh, most Asian traditions have had full contact regimens for most of their existence, dude.
Few, by no means most, have full force, full contact regimens, "dude", even to this day. Some of the more serious schools did of course even in the past, but by no means all.
And most of these regimens only have a tangential relationship to the ability of an average person to protect themselves. Again, context. Many arts are primarily civil defense systems; others are archaic military systems, and still others are sports.
I agree. Some 'martial arts' are for teaching mamas and yuppies to have an incrementally better chance of avoiding a mugging or a purse snatching. Some are sports. Those intended to be
martial arts can either cut the mustard or they cannot.
Full contact events prove that in controlled conditions with the benefit of an athletic development cycle, athletes will kick ass if they have a basic roster of techniques -- or not.
(It's important to note that the fallacy of every art being treated the same works both ways, as the contests between Choi-li Fut and Muay Thai artists proved decades ago. Choi-li Fut is a terrible ring art, but a pretty good civil art.)
I'm not talking about controlled conditions in the ring. To the contrary. I'm talking about sparring in the most realistic and unrestricted manner possible. I despise systems where you have all kinds of restrictions on sparring, like not being able to strike the head or the legs, or where hand -hits don't count. A lot of EMA weapon sparring is like that. There is a certain minimum you have to stick to (stopping after a lethal hit, say) and beyond that, there really shouldn't be any restrictions.
The idea that the ring is the arbiter of street effectiveness for the average person in bunk.
Who said anything about a ring? I've done sparring in any number of environments and conditions, but never in a ring.
Well, if Asian arts get better, then WMAers will be leant more tools to interpret fectbuchs and such. But such broad characterizations of other systems is, for the most part, an expression of ideology, not fact.
I'm all for EMA getting better. I have immense respect for EMA open hand techniques which were always among the best in the world, (despite being over hyped by some folks) and I think they have improved since no-holds barred sparring started, and I agree that WMA and EMA learn from each other. I'm very interested to see what comes out of the revival now taking place.
As for my generalizing, this isn't a martial arts forum... I don't think most people are following even the level of detail we are currently at...
DB
