A Rekindled Glimmer of Hope

[Ratskinner]

I had a hasted dwarf fighter annihilate my balor in one round with a full attack where he scored 3 critical hits and dealt out over 200 points of damage. (in case you were wondering, we make all of our "to hit" rolls on the table in front of everybody)

I can go on with several other examples as well, but that one came first in my head.

The discussion brought to mind a paladin I once DM'ed 2e for. He had the weirdest luck with "to hit" rolls. Throw a goblin at him and he'd whiff all day, put him in an impossible situation like...

...after a protracted running battle in a drow slave camp/mine.
Me: The drow sorceress is now flying, she casts Magic Missile....12 points to the Elf Wizardess.
Wizardess: I'm down!
Illusionist: I'm out of ranged attacks!
Paladin: Augh! I don't have any missile weapons...Can I chuck my bastard sword at her?
Me: What? um....I guess...take a -4 penalty to hit, and Dex instead of strength.
Paladin: ::Looks around:: Another Magic Missile like that and we're all dead anyway. ::calculates:: I'll need a 19 or 20 to hit. Here goes nothing. ::rolls:: Natural 20!...Max Damage!
Me: um....she drops....dead.

...a surprise attack by a Green Dragon in a Jungle, several levels later:
Me: The huge monster crashes through the trees belching a cloud of poisonous gas that covers the whole group. Roll a save or take <some massive amount of damage>.
Wizardess: OUch! I'm down.
Illusionist: Me too.
Cleric: Whoopsy!
Fighter: Too bad you guys didn't heal me up when you....
Halfling Thief: So like...-14 is bad, right?
Paladin: I have 7 hp left...
Me: (I know it didn't really happen, but somehow, in my head, the lights dimmed and green flames erupted from behind the DM's screen.) MWAHAHAHA! Paladin, you have initiative, what do you do?
Paladin: I charge.
Me: Heroic, but futiile!...roll your dice!
Paladin: Natural 20! ...Max Damage! x2 for charging x2 for crit....umm 68 points!
Me: um... she dies.

Of course, this is a little balanced by episodes like the time he was trapped in his collapsed tent as a troll stood on top of him for the entire fight.

2e weird mechanics...but it seemed to generate the best stories of any edition, IME.

 

[Ratskinner]

Either the wizard/MU should be relying on luck/circumstance to enable their uber-power, or (better, IMO) the muggle-types should get much better control over when their "trump card" can be played.

I actually like both ideas. Magic became much more reliable in 3e, which I think was something of a mistake.

My biggest concern for any system of martial maneuvers be that it is very simple and fast to run, and doesn't complicate making martial NPCs (however it is that they decide to do that.)

 

[Keldryn]

If your last sentence is true, then the idea of balancing classes around the "three pillars" seems misguided - because the player of any PC can be imaginative and creative, whether that PC has strong or weak mechanical capabilities in combat.

It is true that D&D has traditionally leaned fairly heavily on freeform for the non-combat pillars. Personally, I think that that tradition makes the whole three pillars idea potentially fraught.

I simply meant that one's class doesn't define everything that they can do. Combat tends to rely on what is found on one's character sheet, as it is more strictly bound by rules. Outside that arena, the sky's the limit.

Heck, even in combat, there are plenty of things that the player of a wizard or rogue can do if they can't cast a spell or perform a sneak attack. One just needs to get engaged in the fiction and try doing something that makes sense rather than being locked into the few options outlined on the character sheet.

I don't really get the sentiment that "if I can't use magic, my wizard isn't being a wizard" or "if my rogue can't be stealthy and backstabby, then I'm not getting to play a rogue." Honestly, the memories that have stuck with me over the years are those moments when someone did something cool that wasn't his or her character's shtick.

 

[Keldryn]

What if the players bypass content? Say you have an adventure made up of 12 encounters and the wizard has 3 encounter ending spells. The players are clever and avoid 9 of the encounters, leaving only 3. Doesn't that mean that the wizard wins every encounter?

We did this, in a session of 3e. The DM had a dungeon inside a steep-sided mountain. My character was a drider with a strength in the mid-20s. We figured out that I could climb up the side of the cliffs, carrying the rest of the party on my back, so we went straight to the final battle, admittedly missing out on some of the treasure.

Personally I don't much like to bypass content, as I see it as entertainment the GM has spent time on creating for the players. It's rather disrepectful, not much different than refusing to enter the dungeon at all. But a lot of groups seem to be cool with it, seeing the avoidance of worthless or 'trap' encounters, such as wandering monsters, as part of the challenge.

As a DM, I don't have too much of a problem with this. There are always more encounters, and I like the vibe of it frequently being better to avoid combat when possible.

Much like I said regarding the amount of time spent in combat and the need for characters to have a way to participate, if encounter preparation is fairly quick and easy, then it's no big deal if the players bypass it. When monster stat blocks are generally short and opponents can be statted up in a matter of minutes, I'm not going to be cheesed off if the players avoid it.

Also, a DM can often re-purpose those skipped encounters, tweak them a bit, and place them elsewhere.

I don't see it anywhere near the same level of disrespect for the DM's work as refusing to enter a dungeon or follow an adventure hook.

 

[Herschel]

I had a hasted dwarf fighter annihilate my balor in one round with a full attack where he scored 3 critical hits and dealt out over 200 points of damage. (in case you were wondering, we make all of our "to hit" rolls on the table in front of everybody)

I can go on with several other examples as well, but that one came first in my head.

So a mathematical anomaly with spellcaster buffs was able to do once what spellcasters in general can do regularly and that's good design?

 

[Herschel]

I worry that the whole encounter ending/skipping spells thing could once again see the decent into the 15 minute adventuring day.

It all depends how a group plays obviously but IME in editions prior to 4e when the casters had blown their encounter killing spells a wise party rested up.

The upside is this all just play test so hopefully a casters can made to satisfy everyone.

BTW if you have not voted your on your experiences Here please do so.

Thanks

Must spread XP.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I worry that the whole encounter ending/skipping spells thing could once again see the decent into the 15 minute adventuring day.

Adventure-based design or not, threats cannot remain static. Anything you can run away from and recover, but keep all your progress on, is a non-challenge.

If you Sleep a bunch of goblins, slit their throats, and run away, when you come back, the goblins have recruited more goblins, to replace those you killed.

15-minute-adventuring-day need not be a consequence of this.

I've been blathering on about that a lot, so I apologize if I sound a little short -- not very many people seem to believe me.

 

[Herschel]

If you Sleep a bunch of goblins, slit their throats, and run away, when you come back, the goblins have recruited more goblins, to replace those you killed.

If you slit all their throats, who did the recruiting?

 

[DMKastmaria]

Adventure-based design or not, threats cannot remain static. Anything you can run away from and recover, but keep all your progress on, is a non-challenge.

If you Sleep a bunch of goblins, slit their throats, and run away, when you come back, the goblins have recruited more goblins, to replace those you killed.

15-minute-adventuring-day need not be a consequence of this.

I've been blathering on about that a lot, so I apologize if I sound a little short -- not very many people seem to believe me.

In almost three decades of DMing, I've never had a problem with 15 Minute workdays. On occasion, it's practical for the party.

Usually, what with being deep in a dungeon, having small armies out for their blood, time constraints, wandering monsters, unwillingness to lose progress gained, caution, the party picking their battles wisely (because otherwise they're boned!)etc., etc., it just doesn't work that way.

I forgot to add "balls" to that list.

 

[Steely_Dan]

And the odd ambush when the party is all cosy is good to shake things up.