A Rekindled Glimmer of Hope

[NewJeffCT]

So a mathematical anomaly with spellcaster buffs was able to do once what spellcasters in general can do regularly and that's good design?

I also said in that same sentence that was only one example of several. That one was memorable because it was late in the campaign and against a powerful foe.

If a wizard is winning every encounter for the party it's a problem with how the encounters are built by the DM.

Until I learned to build the encounter properly, I had the opposite problem with spellcasters in 3E. They would spend the first 2-3-4 rounds of combat de-buffing bad guys while the fighters, paladin and barbarian were wreaking havoc. I had to put the 3E equivalent of minions on the table as targets ust so the spellcasters wouldn't feel totally useless.

 

[Herschel]

So the players probably weren't playing their characters well for tactical efficiency or the melee types were mopping up after the enemies were blind, weakened, helpless and whatever else. That's an issue.

As a DM I want to be able to have a story flow well and get from point A to point B along some sort of path, however the PCs go about getting to the goal (or go off the reservation, but that's cool too some times). I don't want to have to custom-build encounters because the game isn't balanced, I want to put cool things in cool places that make sense to the story. In a balanced system, that means a variety of encounters means everyone has fun and a chance to do their thing and it can all make story sense.

 

[nnms]

If you slit all their throats, who did the recruiting?

The decomposing goblin corpses attract ghouls. Or carrion crawlers. Or ghouls riding carrion crawlers.

 

[B.T.]

The difference in philosophy is that pre-4E physical damage classes never "shined." They just did what they did, consistently. As people got more and more clever with spell usage, Wizards, Druids, and Clerics had more and more ways to shine, while physical classes got to ride in the back of the bus.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who played editions prior to 3e who would beg to differ.

 

[Herschel]

The decomposing goblin corpses attract ghouls. Or carrion crawlers. Or ghouls riding carrion crawlers.

I've done that. The PCs were not happy yet laughing. Unpleasantly surprised in an entertaining way is how I think it was described.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As a DM I want to be able to have a story flow well and get from point A to point B along some sort of path, however the PCs go about getting to the goal (or go off the reservation, but that's cool too some times). I don't want to have to custom-build encounters because the game isn't balanced, I want to put cool things in cool places that make sense to the story. In a balanced system, that means a variety of encounters means everyone has fun and a chance to do their thing and it can all make story sense.

Spells that wipe out entire encounters with one casting are not incompatible with the idea of balance.

Just with the idea of each individual encounter being balanced.

 

[Herschel]

To give an example of things I do in my 4E games, I essentially handwave trivial combat encounters. If a room full of mooks appears and the Wizard says he's dropping a Flaming Sphere in there, then I count the use of his spell, throw down a quick description and voila, the dirty little buggers fry. Some times I turn it in to a Skill Challenge-type event that costs them HP/resources if they fail checks (ala missed some enemies with attacks/spells and got hit back). If they're fighting in total darkness (or not on the map) I sometimes roll out enemies as "Super Minions" with At-Wills causing one hit, Encounters two hits and Dailies four hits with the enemies needing 4-6 hits to kill.

Those are all quick and dirty.

But when there are enemies "deserving" individual attention, then we play it out and all those encounters should be balanced with only extraordinary circumstances causing a quick obliteration.

 

[Dausuul]

Until I learned to build the encounter properly, I had the opposite problem with spellcasters in 3E. They would spend the first 2-3-4 rounds of combat de-buffing bad guys while the fighters, paladin and barbarian were wreaking havoc. I had to put the 3E equivalent of minions on the table as targets ust so the spellcasters wouldn't feel totally useless.

Huh. Your spellcasters had to kill the bad guys themselves to feel useful? How odd.

If the party is facing a huge scary foe, and I render that foe blind, dazed, slowed, and fatigued and then slap on 4 or 5 negative levels, I feel I can legitimately consider myself MVP even if I never deal a single point of damage. The rogue and fighter may do the scut work of killing the helpless quivering mass of pain, but the fight was already over.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But when there are enemies "deserving" individual attention, then we play it out and all those encounters should be balanced with only extraordinary circumstances causing a quick obliteration.

Over in another thread about this, I describe what you might do if you wanted a BBEG or "Boss" encounter.

I imagine in 5e, all these encounters you plan out are just put into a system that accounts for the things your players do.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Huh. Your spellcasters had to kill the bad guys themselves to feel useful? How odd.

If the party is facing a huge scary foe, and I render that foe blind, dazed, slowed, and fatigued and then slap on 4 or 5 negative levels, I feel I can legitimately consider myself MVP even if I never deal a single point of damage. The rogue and fighter may do the scut work of killing the helpless quivering mass of pain, but the fight was already over.

umm, no. Debuffing somebody is different than rendering them blind, dazed, stunned, unconscious, paralyzed, etc.

After the evil wizard and/or cleric and their allies toss around dispel magics at the PCs, and the PCs toss them back at the bad guys, it usually takes 2, 3, or 4 rounds for the bad guys to be out of buffs and now vulnerable to most spells (unless the bad guy has an anti-magic shell up) instead of nearly invulnerable to most spells.