A request for input on the FR Nations and their relative strength

[DM_Matt]

Regarding Evermeet, the FRCS vaguely mentions serious losses in an invasion.

This was mostly a nod to the utterly godaweful novel Evermeet:Island of Elves, where a force of rediculous power came out of nowhere and attacked the island, destroying pretty much everything.

If you do not consider the novels authoritative (which I certainly do not) , then it was just a temporary setback.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hmmm ... can someone give me population statistics on the nations of Faerun?

DM_Matt, I read that book.
If that book is taken into account, Evermeet falls to about 1/3rd of it's previous strength. (The invasion smashed Evermeet awfully badly.)
I was sorta guessing WOTC wasn't taking the book into account, or I'm guessing Evermeet would already have fallen to it's enemies. Evermeet was simply smashed too badly to defend itself effectively against another assault, after the events of that book.

(I'm guessing that if Forrester read that book, it was the best thing ever to happen to him! )

 

[Janos Audron]

TFO and I started with the lists, but we were kinda stuck.

On the one hand, we wanted that high level NPC's had a PL. The Simbul, Elminster, The Zulkirs, Fzoul should all be quite powerful and have the ability to change the course of a war.

On the other had, we didn't want to end up with 200+ PL for a country, as that was the way of the 3rd IR and everything became just so powerful...

We picked 50 PL for Cormyr as a start, but that's that. Cormyr had suffered great losses, but how great? So we weren't sure how stong other countries were in comparison to Cormyr. So instead of a logical formula we were just picking numbers 'randomly', and that didn't feel good...

But I guess I'll take Gez's formula and see what the results are...

I did make a list of 'all' the powers in FR:

Aglarond
Amn
Anauroch
Calimshan
Chessenta
Chondalwood
Chult
Cormyr
Dalelands
Damara
Dragon Coast
Evermeet
Great Dale
Halruaa
High Forest
Hordelands
Impiltur
Lake of Steam
Lantan
Luiren
Moonsea
Moonshae Isles
Mulhorand
Narfell
Nelanther Isles
The North
Rashemen
Sembia
The Shaar
Silverymoon
Tashalar
Tethyr
Thay
Thesk
Unther
Vaasa
The Vast
Vilhon Reach
Waterdeep
Western Heartlands

Red Wizards
Harpers
Twisted Rune
Emerald Enclave
Various Churches
People of the Black Blood
Demonfey
Magic haters in Amn
Shadow Thieves
Night Masks
Lords of the Shield
Seven Sisters
Cult of the Dragon
Fire Knives
Malaugryms
The Shades
The Zhentarim

FRCS had population stats. I'll post em this afternoon.

 

[William Ronald]

Hi, Edena:

I will take down the list, and try to list populations in the next day or so for the nations I have the FRCS book, but not Lords of Darkness. Possibly someone with the book can work on that end(I have a little more free time than normal this week.)

I rather like Gez's formula. I would suggest that you also try to compare the power of the nations in the FRCS to what you did in the World of Greyhawk setting in the 3rd IR. For example, in the Realms, Cormyr has a population of 1,360,000 people while Furyondy in the World of Greyhawk a population of 1,481,000. As neither nation truly has epic-level NPCs associated with them, their power rankings would be similar.

Some of this would be a judgement call. As for the roles of deities, one of Mulhorand's strength is the very strong support from the Mulhorandi pantheon.

Edena, thanks for bringing this topic up. This sounds like a great project for the boards.

Gez, if you have any more map resources, you can post links to them on my Maps and Other Campaign Resources thread in the Talking the Talk forum.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

I am seeking your input on issues relating to the Forgotten Realms.
I am attempting to make a comprehensive list of everything that could be considered a Power in the Realms.
I am attempting to do a comparative rating of one Power versus another.
I am also attempting to find out just what all the Powers ARE in FR ... there are truly many, and some are obscure.

For example, if asked for a list of the strongest Powers in Faerun, I might say:

Strongest: Halruaa (Power Level 100)
2nd Strongest: Evermeet (90)
3rd Strongest: Dambrath (85)
#4: Candlekeep (84)
#5: The Phaerimm of Anauroch (83)
#6: Aglarond (57)
#7: Waterdeep (55)
#8: The Shade (54)
#9: Thay (48)
#10: Luruar (45)
#11: Calimsham (43)
#12: Mulhorand (38)
#13: Var the Golden (36)
#14: Zhentil Keep / Zhentarim (35)
#15: Rasheman (34)
#16: Nimbral (32)
#17: Amn (28)
#18: Sembia (25)
#19: Mulmaster (23)
#20: Shadowdale (20)
#21: Thesk (19)
#22: Dwarves of the Great Rift (17)
#23: Menzoberranzan (16)
#24: Larloch / Necropolis (15)
#25: Westgate / Night Masks (8)
#26: Tethyr (7)
#27: Beholders of the Lake of Steam (7)
#28: Baldur's Gate (6)
#29: Cormyr (6)
#30: Luskan (5)
#31: Evereska (5)
#32: Chessenta (4)
#33: Unther (4)
#34: Lantan (4)
#35: Raven's Bluff (3)
#36: Hillsfar? (3)
#37: The United Peoples of the Moonshaes (3)
#38: Luiren (2)
#39: Neverwinter (2)
#40: Chondath (2)

Then again, I probably would be wrong.
The list is not complete.
And my Power Levels are not correct.

So, what is the complete list?
And, what are the correct Power Levels?

I think the difference between the lowest and highest is far too big (and I agree that you may be overcompensating for the magic factor).

On top of my head:

Sembia - much tougher. Well-organised, with large mercantile and financial resources to draw from. Add to that, that they may have a substantial fleet to defend their Moonsea ports.

Chondath - They are a troubled "nation" yes, but I don't think yoiu shoiuld underestimate them that much. They DO have a lot of warlords and even though they are not currently working together, I think any nation would find an invasion of Chondath a tough undertaking. These are hardy and aggressive people. (at least that's how I play them in my RttToEE campaign).

I think you should redo the thing from a clearer framework. For instance - why do the Phaerimm have 83 against Cormyr's 6? Surely a single powerful nation or citystate would have the power to at least provide a fair fight against the remaining Phaerimm etc.

-Zarrock

 

[Janos Audron]

Populations of the countries of the FR

Aglarond | 1,270,080
Amn | 2,963,520
Anauroch | 114,048
Calimshan | 5,339,520
Chessenta | 3,386,880
Chult | 440,640
Cormanthor | 154,223
Cormyr | 1,360,800
Dalelands | 602,640
Damara | 1,321,920
Dragon Coast | 820,800
Evermeet | 1,658,880
Great Dale | 211,680
Halruaa | 1,676,160
High Forest | 29,088
Hordelands | 133,488
Impiltur | 1,205,280
Lake of Steam | 1,745,280
Lantan | UNKNOWN
Luiren | 838,080
Moonsea | 1,745,280
Moonshae Isles | 680,400
Mulhorand | 5,339,520
Narfell | 36,720
Nelanther Isles | 2,822
Rashemen | 654,480
Sembia | 2,462,400
Sespech | 952,560
The Great Rift | 1,308,920
The Savage Frontier | 564,480
The Shaar | 587,520
The Silver Marches | 1,090,800
The Sword Coast North | 660,960
Tashalar | 889,920
Tethyr | 3,771,360
Thay | 4,924,800
Thesk | 855,360
Turmish | 1,693,440
Underdark | UNKNOWN
Unther | 4,263,840
Vaasa | 145,440
The Vast | 1,308,960
Vilhon Reach | 5,505,840
Waterdeep | 1,347,840
Western Heartlands | 1,641,600

 

[green slime]

Well, I for one, wouldn't rank Halrua anywhere near one of the most powerful nations in Faerûn. It does *nothing* but sit around and contemplate its own navel in a narcissitic display of self satisfaction.

It doesn't do anything to try and influence events in the rest of the continent. The people there are far too immersed in their own political wheedlings within their "glorious" nation to be any serious threat to anyone.

That isn't to say, that if a threat was serious enough to disturb them from their fantasies, that they wouldn't be a terrible power. It seems however, that tucked away in an obscure place way off center, they are to find themselves bypassed and soon forgotten.

On the other hand Amn, with its aggressive colonization policy, shows a willingness to expand and gain enormous amounts of wealth.

Mulhorand with its strong association with the divine, and a willingness to conquer also ranks right up there as one of the "nations to watch".

Evermeet, isn't really of Faerûn, not many going there, and they aren't really involving themselves on what is going on on the mainland either. They withdrew, for goodness sake. Whether their loses are publically known or not should be reflected in their "strength" value. If you consider it public knowledge, then they are ripe for the taking (Amn, time to grab, before someone else does). If the invasion was known, but the cost to the elves not, then it still remains the unasailable island of mystery, and should be reflected in its standings.

The Shades are a true power, and because of their mysterious qualities, they are well be regarded as one of the strongest. They are an unknown, and their aims and goals are hidden. This gives them an upper hand.

Thay as always, but will they ever pull together long enough to be reasonably coherent? Attempting to control the market in magical goods, well, this ploy may just as easily be the cause of their downfall.

 

[Janos Audron]

So, if someone (Edena ) would give me the exact criteria for for determining strong or politics, army, economics etc, I could do some calculations...

 

[Gez]

Newby DM: Oops, I corrected that.

William Ronald: Well, that map comes from the Wizards.com site, Perilous Gateways: Portals of the Moonsea.
Perilous Gateways and Rand's Travelogue are great sources of maps for the FR.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Janos, I really do appreciate your lists. Thank you.
The question you ask, of course, is very difficult.

I submit a first effort of my own at quantifying the strength of any given FR power.
It is a modification of the system proposed by Gez.
If ANYONE would like to add suggestions or improvements to this system, please feel free to chime in!

- - -

POWER LEVEL (PL) OF ANY GIVEN FR REALM

Total Population of that Nation x
Average Intelligence of the Population of that Nation x
Leadership of that Nation (not in an actual IR, obviously) x
Political Will of that Nation x
Military Might of that Nation x
Magical Might of that Nation x
Economic Might of that Nation x
CR of the Average Citizen of that Nation

Total Population is expressed in absolutes: If Evermeet has 1,658,880 people, then that is the number used for the equation.
Average Intelligence of the Population is just that. If the Average Intelligence of the Elves of Evermeet is 11 (?), then 11 is the number used for the equation.
Leadership is expressed from 2 to 12. 2 = worst possible leadership. 7 = average leadership. 12 = best possible leadership.
Political Will is also expressed from 2 to 12.
Military Might is expressed from 2 to 12.
Magical Might is expressed from 2 to 12.
Economic Might is expressed from 2 to 12.
CR is actual CR, PLUS ONE. If the elves have an average CR of 1, then the number used is 2. (Ogres, with a CR of 3 (?) would have a number of 4.)

The result is divided by one billion to find the Power Level of the Nation.

Therefore ...

Evermeet:

1,658,880 (population) x
11 (average intelligence) x
9 (moderately strong leadership) x
5 (poor political will) x
9 (moderately strong military might) x
9 (moderately strong magical might) x
4 (very poor economic strength) x
2 (average CR 1, plus 1 for this formula)

= 532.10 (calculator required!)

So, Evermeet has a PL of 532.10