D&D 5E A Sense of Wonder in 5E

[GregoryOatmeal]

Later, Dark Sun and Planescape made me feel similar...am I too old and experienced with fantasy tropes, books, movies, etc.?

For what it's worth I'm in my late twenties and pretty genuinely bored of and disinterested with a lot of fantasy/sci-fi, videogames, and big-budget movies. The things that fascinated me when I was twelve - Lord of the Rings, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc., put me to sleep now. As a DM I'm remarkably uninterested in nerd fiction (movies, books, videogames, whatever) in general - I can barely follow the original Star Wars trilogy.

I discovered PS/DS in the last two years. They fill me with a sense of wonder because they rock incredibly hard, irregardless of age or nostalgia. I don't really buy this "you can't feel twelve again" talk since the examples you provided definitely made me feel that way.

Planescape and Dark Sun develop their cult audiences due to:
- wildly inventive ideas
- distinct and original art styles
- creative writing that isn't bogged down by rules or stat blocks

They can totally pull that off again.

 

[Tuft]

I used to play the MMO "City of Heroes" year after year.

One thing never failed to evoke the spirit of wonder in me during these years: Getting to the top of a scyscraper at in-game night, standing there seeing the sunrise. Then I'd step off the building roof and fall... And just before I hit the ground, I'd toggle "fly" and swoop along the steel canyons of the city.

Flight, invisibility, telepathy... Breaking the laws of the mundane world, fullfilling dreams people have had since the dawn of mankind, expressed in myths, legends and fairy tales ever since. That's Sense of Wonder for me!

What killed it for me? The MMO introduced loads of more and more complex ways of optimisating your charcter through various lootable and craftable "enhancers". Lots and lots of combat grind for loot, trying to win a few percent of your pre-planned optimized build...



So for me:
SoW: emotional magical moments of wish-fulfillment.
Anti-SoW: preplanned optimized character builds in combat grind.

 

[Dice4Hire]

There have been many games I wish I could erase from my memory and start over to get that sense of discovery again. D&D is one of them.

Still, with a good exploration game, it is still very possible to have a sense of wonder.

 

[pemerton]

I have lots of wonder in my games, and I'm 31 and began with the red box in 1986. Still have it playing 4e.

I started with Moldvay Basic in 82 (aged 11) and play 4e now (aged 40). And like you, I still have wonder in my game.

I think that's part of role-playing, wonder is baked in to the players not knowing what the DM is going to throw at them, and the DM not knowing how the players will respond. And sometimes vice versa!

Yes.

I also disagree with those who think that rules are the enemy of the sense of wonder. Good rules - rules that make the fiction matter (because the fiction is the source of wonderment), and that don't get in the way of engaging the fiction - support it.

What those rules will be exactly, differs from person to person. To wit:

Supposed you arrive at a corridor in which there are corpses with arrows in their back:
Lose rules: "I take my 10 feet pole and poke at the floor plates before I step on them."
Strict rules: "I roll for Trapfinding."

My problem with the second example here isn't that it has strict rules. Rather, it has bad rules - it doesn't require the player to explain what it is that his/her PC is doing in order to generate a skill check.

But my problem with both examples is that I have close to zero interest in trap finding in my game, and it evokes no sense of wonder - only of tedium. But equally, I'm sure that my game makes a big deal out of elements of the fiction that others have close to zero interest in.

Wonderment is a subjective and somewhat relative thing.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm in my mid-30s but I still can have a huge sense of wonder!

The problem is, I have no idea how it works I started playing D&D with a boxed re-release of BD&D and my sense of wonder was great, years later rediscovered it via 3ed and again big SoW but not with all settings (FR and Rokugan did it for me, DL and Eberron did not). Then 4e came and did not hit my SoW radar, but I don't think it was because of the rules because PF didn't give me SoW either...

I believe it's got to do with the presentation of it (which means not only the artwork but also the words and descriptions).

But mostly it seems totally random for me. I can get no SoW from the most beautifully realized PC games out there, and then fall completely for very old and poor RPG for C64 or simple things like this: Machinarium

 

[billd91]

My problem with the second example here isn't that it has strict rules. Rather, it has bad rules - it doesn't require the player to explain what it is that his/her PC is doing in order to generate a skill check.

I don't believe I've ever encountered an edition of D&D that didn't encourage the players to describe what they're doing. So I would submit that it's not a failure of rules a much as it's a failure of the DM and players to choose to describe what they're doing that invokes a rule. For some people, that's the style they want to play. I think it's unfortunate because a lot of fun potential is missed, but that's their game, not mine.

 

[Mengu]

Put out three brand new settings out of the gate, to show people how a setting can be created, how the rules can be adjusted to fit the needs of a setting, and how orcs need not be orcs.

4e taught us quite a bit about monster design. I can take a beholder gauth, change a couple powers, and call it an ettin shaman, and none of my players will know I started with a beholder. It's the vivid descriptions that take us to that wondrous place, not the numbers on the paper.

 

[Scribble]

I think back in the days before 3e (or, I guess really Players Option books) when the rules got a bit more structured, there was a broader sense that the PCs could do anything the players imagined. But I wouldn't call that a sense of wonder, really. I think that's something different.

I get what you're saying, but I think it plays into it.

One of the things I liked the most about 4e monsters was that since different monsters of the same type could have different powers and abilities, it felt more like the old days when you never really knew what to expect with monsters- They sort of rekindled my sense of monster wonder...


I think part of it too is that back in the day they were just making new stuff. Planescape was new, so was Dark Sun... Back in first edition and earlier everything was new...

These days every time there is a new edition the emphasis seems to be more on when are they going to re-release X?

I would like to see them break new ground, but then you have people upset because their favorite thing from the past is being ignored.



In the end I think there are things they can do to get a sort of feeling similar to sense of wonder (like the monsters thing) but at the same time D&D has done grown up. It just has too much history to keep breaking new ground. They're the blue chip RPG.

 

[Scribble]

I don't believe I've ever encountered an edition of D&D that didn't encourage the players to describe what they're doing. So I would submit that it's not a failure of rules a much as it's a failure of the DM and players to choose to describe what they're doing that invokes a rule. For some people, that's the style they want to play. I think it's unfortunate because a lot of fun potential is missed, but that's their game, not mine.

Sorry to keep quoing you, but I think this is why I kind of liked what I've heard about the skill system so far.

The openness?

I like the idea of skills- they give a consistent and fair way to arbitrate something, but they DO seem a bit too binary.

I like the idea that they is a basic reolution mechanic, but since there isn't a list of "skills" it's a lot more wide open to how you eventually resolve things.

I like the idea that the DM ultimately decides which stat what you're doing focuses on, because you're no longer describing your use of trap finding... You're describing your trap finding action and letting your DM handle how to resolve...

AT least in theory.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Obfuscation only works until it doesn't. If you spend time on the internet reading about D&D - any edition - you're going to cease to be ignorant about it, and that ignorance-based wonder will be lost.

Excellent point. Internet makes sensawunda harder to achieve.