D&D 5E (2014) A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[James Gasik]

I disagree. CoDzilla occurs because caster players thought that casting buffs on themselves to make themselves better than Fighters was a good idea, when they should have been using those buffs to make Fighters even stronger.

Plus, I don't know about you, but I see very few battles where casters have the opportunity to layer buffs on themselves anyways, since there's this thing called "action economy" (you can bring up Divine Metamagic here, but that's not a core option, and everyone says CoDzilla is a core issue).

People talk about how powerful the Druid's animal forms are, but completely skim over their terrible armor class when they do this- Wild armor is expensive, as are Monk's Belts, Bracers, and all the other things that need to shore that up.

What does the Druid have natively to increase AC? Barkskin?

So here's what this boils down to- hypothetical armchair analysis, permissive DM's, and a failure to analyze how to most efficiently use resources. Casting spells to turn a caster into a melee combatant is ridiculous (I mean, who casts Tenser's Transformation?) in most circumstances.

Yes, a Half-Orc Cleric can cast Bull's Strength on themselves to outperform a Fighter. Congratulations, penguin, you traded your wings for flippers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think part of the problem is that D&D has always tried to encompass the broadest possible range of fantasy and mythological tropes…for spellcasters and other mystical heroes. The game has never been so broadly friendly to the “mundane” archetypes.

And when people who want to play mundane, gritty heroes alongside near-gods, well…it’s not necessary going to be their cup of tea.

OTOH, a lot of people over the history of the game ditched some of the rules that actually limited caster power- less control over spells known/learned (it used to randomized), fewer spell slots, damage being disruptive of casting, casting times, component requirements, etc.- and those rules gradually weakened or disappeared.

Disclosure: none of that bugged me, personally. I’ve rarely played single classed full casters, and when I have, they were definitely not optimized game-gods, their spell selections (and later, feat selections, etc.) were idiosyncratic to the character in question.

When I really want to run/play in fantasy campaigns where martial and mystic heroes are better balanced, I start looking at point buy systems, especially toolkit systems like HERO, GURPS and the like.

 

[Mordhau]

I disagree. CoDzilla occurs because caster players thought that casting buffs on themselves to make themselves better than Fighters was a good idea, when they should have been using those buffs to make Fighters even stronger.

Plus, I don't know about you, but I see very few battles where casters have the opportunity to layer buffs on themselves anyways, since there's this thing called "action economy" (you can bring up Divine Metamagic here, but that's not a core option, and everyone says CoDzilla is a core issue).

People talk about how powerful the Druid's animal forms are, but completely skim over their terrible armor class when they do this- Wild armor is expensive, as are Monk's Belts, Bracers, and all the other things that need to shore that up.

What does the Druid have natively to increase AC? Barkskin?

So here's what this boils down to- hypothetical armchair analysis, permissive DM's, and a failure to analyze how to most efficiently use resources. Casting spells to turn a caster into a melee combatant is ridiculous (I mean, who casts Tenser's Transformation?) in most circumstances.

Yes, a Half-Orc Cleric can cast Bull's Strength on themselves to outperform a Fighter. Congratulations, penguin, you traded your wings for flippers.

Sorry dude. This was settled long ago. That the 3.5 cleric was overpowered is really not up for debate at this point.

 

[James Gasik]

Clerics have ALWAYS been overpowered. 3e actually powered them down from where they were by the end of 2e. A heavy armored caster class with great saves, the second best attack progression and hit points, with great xp advancement, and any weakness you perceive they have could be eliminated by worshipping the right God?

The issue only existed because Cleric players got it into their heads that they were better off not being support for other characters, and using their tools wrong.

 

[Mordhau]

Still ain't going to bite.

 

[James Gasik]

Well look at it this way. What prevents the 5e Cleric or Druid from doing the same things? I know the first thing most people say, they go "aha, James, concentration! It prevents them from piling on buffs!".

And I smile and nod, then ask "how often do you see casters using buffs on other players?" The answer varies, but from my experience the answer is, rarely.

Why? Because they'd rather save their concentration for other spells they'd rather cast.

 

[Minigiant]

I am not sure exactly what you mean, can you give me examples.

I mean that as the caster levels, their lower level spells stop being strong enough to deal with the threats and obstacles of high levels. Especially since 5e spells don't getstronger as you level andtey share the same spell prepared limit.

So a highlevel caster will stop preparing Burning hands and Sleep and prepare utility spells like Chrm Person and Disguise Self. And they will use them liberally since they have nothing else to do with those slots (unless they are a sorcerer)

 

[DND_Reborn]

And I smile and nod, then ask "how often do you see casters using buffs on other players?" The answer varies, but from my experience the answer is, rarely.

FWIW, I see buffs on other PCs more often than on the casters, themselves. Now, other concentration spells (non-buffs) are certainly a factor!

 

[ECMO3]

The issue only existed because Cleric players got it into their heads that they were better off not being support for other characters, and using their tools wrong.

I rarely play clerics, but when I do I almost never play a character who is promarily support for the party. That is not the kind of character I like to play.

The great thing about 5E is you can build a warrior cleric or an offensive caster or a utility cleric or any role you want and be pretty good at it.

 

[Joshy]

If damaging cantrips need to be limited per day then casters need the same limit on attacking with weapons.