A small host of questions, rays and splits and chains and...

[Scion]

Sorry for the vague title, but this is a bit varied.

I have been discussing with another poster on a different thread a few potential areas of the rules.. I would love to see what people had to say on the matter, especially if they know the proper place to look in the rules. I am going to try to keep my personal opinions on the matter out of it, at least for now

(anyone know how to do the hide tags? that might make the post more managable to read)

First off, energy conversion:
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Energy Conversion
Psychometabolism [see text]
Level: Psion/wilder 7
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal and close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text
Effect: Ray; see text
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 13
As energy adaptation, except that instead of radiating away energy as light, you store up the energy and can later discharge it as a ray. To discharge a ray requires a standard action. You can choose to fire any number of rays during the power’s duration. The ray you fire must be of one of the energy types you have stored (if you have stored more than one type, you can choose what kind of energy to use for each ray). If a ray successfully strikes its target (requiring a ranged touch attack), the target takes damage equal to the amount of energy damage of that type you have stored, up to a maximum of three times your manifester level. As long as this power remains in effect, you can continue to absorb energy damage and fire additional rays using the stored damage.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you discharge in a ray; thus, its subtype can change during the course of the power’s duration.

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And the important questions: What do you think the maximum amount of energy that can be held for each type is? How much do you let off with each blast? How long could you do such blasts?

Now the aside questions dealing with this:
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SPLIT PSIONIC RAY [METAPSIONIC]
You can affect two targets with a single ray.
Prerequisite: Any other metapsionic feat.
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can split psionic rays you manifest. The split ray affects any two targets that are both within the power’s range and within 30 feet of each other. If the ray deals damage, each target takes as much damage as a single target would take.
Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2.

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So, what do people think about manisting the above power with this metapsionic feat? Would it allow each of those rays to be split? Why or why not of course

Moving along, we get to this metapsionic feat:
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CHAIN POWER [METAPSIONIC]
You can manifest powers that arc to hit other targets in addition to the primary target.
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can chain any power that affects a single target and that deals either acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage. After the primary target is struck, the power can arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your manifester level (maximum twenty). The secondary arcs each strike one target and deal half as much damage as the primary one did (round down).
Each target gets to make a saving throw, if one is allowed by the power. You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum (to avoid allies in the area, for example).
Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 6. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.

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Given this particular feat would you allow it to be placed on the current power with the purpose of having it work off of the rays.


Moving right along:
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Energy Wall
Metacreativity (Creation) [see text]
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Area: An opaque sheet of energy up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of energy with a radius of up to 5 ft./2 levels
Duration: Concentration + 1 round/ level
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 5
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create an immobile sheet of energy of the chosen type formed out of unstable ectoplasm. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of energy, dealing 2d6 points of damage to creatures and objects within 10 feet and 1d6 points of damage to those beyond 10 feet but within 20 feet. In addition, anyone passing though the energy wall takes 2d6 points of damage +1 point per manifester level (maximum +20).
If you manifest the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.
If you manifest this power in the form of a ring of energy, you choose whether the waves of energy radiate inward or outward from the ring.
Cold: A sheet of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold wall is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity: Manifesting a sheet of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire: A sheet of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic: A sheet of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.

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Given something like this, and no it doesnt have to be this power specifically, would you allow someone to manifest such a power in one square, have the character standing in another, and have them reach various limbs into the wall in order to keep taking damage from it as if immersed while not actually being in the same square as it is. Why or why not, to all of them. I know it sounds pretty odd, but it is important for a different question.


Going back to a question about chain power: What would happen if you applied it to a ray power such as the one below?
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Energy Ray
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Psion/wilder 1
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create a ray of energy of the chosen type that shoots forth from your fingertip and strikes a target within range, dealing 1d6 points of damage, if you succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray.
Cold: A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Electricity: Manifesting a ray of this energy type provides a +3 bonus on your attack roll if the target is wearing metal armor and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire: A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
Sonic: A ray of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6).

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So, in the end it comes down to a few things really.
1) energy conversion, how much energy stored? how big of blasts? for how long?
2) energy conversion, how does it interact with split ray?
3) energy conversion, how does it interact with chain power?
4) energy wall, how could one (by the raw preferably) stick a limb across it taking damage while not actually being in its square? What would be good to say about such a thing if a player tried it? After all, it makes sense in the real world, so it can come up.
5) chain power, how does it interact with energy ray and the like?

The whys and hows within the raw are pretty important for each of these. I definately have my own views on the situation, but I would like to hear what everyone has to say. Thanks for the help!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

1) There's no limit to the amount of energy stored. The amount of energy you store from any particular attack is equal to the amount deflected by the energy resistance granted to you by the power. The target takes damage equal to MIN(Stored Energy, Manifester Level * 3), and your "reserves" are reduced by a similar amount. You may continue to fire blasts, one per round, so long as you have a charge built up or until the duration of the power ends.

2) It doesn't, as written. You aren't manifesting the rays that come from the power, you merely manifested the power. I don't see a huge problem in allowing you to expend your focus and split the ray from the power, however.

3) It doesn't. See the discussion below on Energy Ray and Chain Power.

4) There's nothing in the RAW that say how to handle this, so I'd rule it as permanently "passing through," and you'd get hit with 2d6+ML damage each round.

5) Chain Power doesn't interact with Energy Ray (or most other rays, for that matter). It affects psionic powers with a target entry. Energy Ray doesn't have a target entry, it has an effect entry.

So, you're thinking of manifesting the wall, sticking your arm into it, and blasting people with the stored energy, eh?

 

[Scion]

So, you're thinking of manifesting the wall, sticking your arm into it, and blasting people with the stored energy, eh?

Not me, I am in a discussion attempting to break a certain prc and the person I am discussing things with has brought up many of the points here but I have been unsuccessful so far in proving my point to his satisfaction.. hence, I am trying to get as much rules help as possible, it would be nice to see which of us (if either) is incorrect by the raw

 

[Cabral]

(anyone know how to do the hide tags? that might make the post more managable to read)

Wow. That's alot ... I'll have to take a closer look later, but what I think you are looking for is [sblock]Whoopie![/sblock]

which you do with the [sblock] tag

 

[Scion]

[sblock]thanks looking forward to your thoughts![/sblock]

 

[IanB]

Patryn is definitely right about chain power not working with either effect. I'm undecided about split ray, since 'ray' is actually listed in the effect field for energy conversion. I'm inclined to say that according to the wording of all that, you can manifest energy conversion with split ray (requiring manifester level 15 and costing 15 power points as normal) and then you get to fire double rays.

In practice I'm not sure I like how that works out.

EDIT: With a little more thought, though, the fact that it takes you a standard action to do it (precluding most other manifestation) and the fact that the amount of damage you can realistically store up each round isn't really that high means that this is probably a poor choice for a psion from a damage output standpoint (though it is certainly power point efficient.)

 

[Scion]

Patryn is definitely right about chain power not working with either effect.

Likely true, and I appreciate the responses, but unfortunately I need a bit more on the quoted rules to resolve the issue overall ;/ Although reasoning definately helps as well, I like to see all of the angles.

I am trying to stay out if it as much as possible for now so I didnt think it would be proper to talk from the rules quotes I had found, it might seem to override parts of the ruleset that I missed. I'll pop up with what I have later sometime

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Likely true, and I appreciate the responses, but unfortunately I need a bit more on the quoted rules to resolve the issue overall

What more do you need on that issue?

Chain Power works on spells which "affects a single target." In D&D rulespeak, that means a power that has a "Target: Creature Touched" or "Target: One humanoid creature" (or similar) line.

A ray spell or power does not have a target line; it has an effect line. It is not a targeted power.

 

[Scion]

What more do you need on that issue?

Enough to convince the opposition of course

I have already said the same thing, but the rebuttal was:
'But you're assigning keyword-level importance when no such significance is explicitly assigned within the text.'

It may be impossible to convince the person otherwise, but I wanted to see if anyone knew of a way I hadnt already tried.. without making a potential problem of stating which rules I had already quoted.

Complex I know and I completely agree with your interpretation on this issue. It seems so basic to me that I am having a hard time working from that position to prove it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I have already said the same thing, but the rebuttal was:
'But you're assigning keyword-level importance when no such significance is explicitly assigned within the text.'

Riiiight. I can see this will be difficult.

Ask him, then, if Spell Turning protects against Disintegrate.