A solution for multiclass spellcasters? (without PrCs)

[Mordane76]

...that at level 20 any spellcaster is expected to have access to level 7-9 spells...

But here's the thing... he's not a 20th level CASTER... he's a 20th level CHARACTER. Let him do some more work for that twentieth level CASTER bit, then we'll talk.

 

[Mordane76]

Mordane76, thats all well and good, but since bab stacks, and that is effectively the same thing as spellcasters spells ::shrugs:: I see no real difference except that spell casters take a big hit, but fighter types 'already' allow the stacking of different fighter classes.

Attacks 'are' the fighters equivalent to spells, and a lot more hp is also one of their class features. If this wasnt the case then why not give the magic users full bab progression and better hp? Every level fighters get more bab, which can be used in all sorts of circumstances. Feats make use of it, special combat manuevers, even out of combat on occasion.

Uh-huh... of course, a fighter can fire an arrow and hit someone for ~60 points of damage 400+ yards away... I'd like to see the bow that can do that in one hit without havnig to roll to hit (that's an Empowered Fireball, which your Wiz/Clr10 can throw). Or, the BAB that lets a fighter hold an opponent immobile for a round or more.

Straight comparing BAB and Spells is like comparing apples and oranges. BAB allows you to do one thing -- beat people up. Spells allow you to do many more things than just beat people up.

Spellcasting compares better to a Fighter's feats and a Barbarian DR progression or a Rogue's sneak attack, which is what I've said. And, while we're at it, BAB stacks for all classes, so those Wiz/Clr combos are getting that benefit as well as Ftr/Brb or Ftr/Anything. Why should they also get stackable caster levels?

 

[The Cardinal]

of course they worked for it - they earned the XP to level up, didn't they? The problem which I try to adress here is the fact that 3.0 and 3.5 inherently assume that every single non-magic class gets at least at bit bet better at what it does by advancing in other (even magical) classes: more skills, better BAB, special combat abilities, etc. - only magical classes are totally isolated from one another, so that any kind of multiclassing (even with other magical classes) weakens the character with every single level to the point of uselessness. I just tried to create a patch for that - but if you're happy with a (in that regard) somewhat bugged system, there's no need for you to discuss a solution to something that's apparently not a problem to you, or is there?

 

[Mordane76]

If you want to discuss how I feel about other aspects of the spellcasters, like skills and HP, I'll be happy to do so, but this aspect of caster buffing just sours my stomach. We're not talking about the other parts of the casters, we're talking about their caster levels stacking, and that just isn't right.

Let's use your Wiz10/Sor10...
He's earned 190,000 XP.

He would have the caster levels of Wiz18/Sor18...
36nd level characters need 630,000 XP.


Now, he only have the saves, BAB, and HP for a 20th level character, so I'll concede he's not exactly as 36nd level character, but spells are a big deal for the casters, so I'll split the difference... He's probably around a 28th level character in terms of power. So... 28th level characters need 378,000 XP.

So... where's that other 188,000 XP?

 

[Scion]

Uh-huh... of course, a fighter can fire an arrow and hit someone for ~60 points of damage 400+ yards away... I'd like to see the bow that can do that in one hit without havnig to roll to hit (that's an Empowered Fireball, which your Wiz/Clr10 can throw). Or, the BAB that lets a fighter hold an opponent immobile for a round or more.

Straight comparing BAB and Spells is like comparing apples and oranges. BAB allows you to do one thing -- beat people up. Spells allow you to do many more things than just beat people up.

11th level fighter

BAB +11
HP 11d10 + 11xcon mod (say +2, avg = 87)
dex 18->22
feats (4+6): weapon focus(longbow), rapid shot, far shot, point blank shot, Improved critical(longbow), manyshot, weapon specialization(longbow), improved precise shot

standard action: manyshot, 3 arrows -6 penalty

Mighty bow (+1str) +3, lesser bracers of archery, cloak of protection +2, dexterity boosting item +4

at 400 feet = 2 range increments of penalty (-4)

Ref save 3 + 6(dex) +2(res) = 11

at 400 feet using a standard action this guy can put out a volley that has a +11 to hit, not great but not horrible. Hitting it will do 3d8 + 12 (avg 25.5)

so the fighter will hit one target for about what the mage hits for when the target makes its save. The mage gets to do this maybe twice in one day, and that uses up all of his higher slots (which he is, for some reason, always assumed to have open for every encounter). But the fighter can do this on the first and probably second round of combat all day long, more if he moves properly and with a greater bonus.

So the fighter will do more consistant damage over a much longer period of time, but the mages are good for short bursts a couple of times per day and then they are done. And for this serious lack of power that they have over an endurance, they gain the abilty to be versitile now and then.

But this only works for a straight caster, if you multi a spellcaster dont even show up for the fight. If you multi the fighter he only gets better.

Now, the desparity seems clear to me BAB are the fighters cup-o-tea, spells are the wizards. Since you want to compare combat potential then there is the basis they can be compared on, and the mage comes up seriously lacking as long as there are more than 4 rounds of combat in any given day.

 

[Mordane76]

That's the problem -- Both the fighter and the wizard have BAB.

BAB is NOT the Fighter's cup of tea -- Feats are.

Spells are definitely the caster's cup of tea, many of which don't necessarily require To-Hit rolls, and therefore don't take into account an opponent's AC. Also, when a wizard does something other than blow someone up, like Hold, the Will save comes into play -- which is a combatant's weak side...


We can go round and round like this for days. In the end, the rules were written one way, and people griped, so WotC handed the masses classes like Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight to shut them up. They broke their own rules by make easy, legal end-arounds. Now, everyone can have their Clr/Wiz combos (that really shouldn't have the power they do for their level), and everyone can have their Ftr/Wiz combinations that are handy with sword and spell (when they shouldn't be at their level).


Just don't do what you're suggesting. Why should I play a melee fighter in a game using the rules suggested? I would be MUCH more powerful as a spellcaster, more or less from the get-go. As a Wiz2/Sor2, I would cast as a Wiz3/Sor3... so it starts at 4th level and just goes from there.

 

[Scion]

Spells are definitely the caster's cup of tea, many of which don't necessarily require To-Hit rolls, and therefore don't take into account an opponent's AC. Also, when a wizard does something other than blow someone up, like Hold, the Will save comes into play -- which is a combatant's weak side...

Just don't do what you're suggesting. Why should I play a melee fighter in a game using the rules suggested? I would be MUCH more powerful as a spellcaster, more or less from the get-go. As a Wiz2/Sor2, I would cast as a Wiz3/Sor3... so it starts at 4th level and just goes from there.

no one said it was perfect yet, however, this board is to try and find a way to do it.

If you are that afraid of it then just dont let it happen, but in my eyes at least that is the same as not letting fighter and barbarians stack. They have different fighting styles, are taught different swings, yet these add up to a better fighting machine (this is through class abilities, feats, bab, etc). But you see no problem letting these pile on one another. Moving mystical energies is the same in this context, you are good at one, so you should be able to more easily understand useing others.

Really, at this point I'll suggest making a feat, by taking this feat you are able to use the above formula for one additional class. (ie you take it once and are able to have 2 different spellcasters stack in this way, twice and 3 can, etc). This will make it even more prohibitive. Make sure you also require the appropriate knowledge skills to be maxed or whatever.

Once you've done all that if you still dont let them stack in some fashion then your fighter10/barb10 needs a bab of 10 and you have to choose each round whether to use your fighter feats or your barbarian abilities.

 

[Scion]

Spells are definitely the caster's cup of tea, many of which don't necessarily require To-Hit rolls, and therefore don't take into account an opponent's AC. Also, when a wizard does something other than blow someone up, like Hold, the Will save comes into play -- which is a combatant's weak side...

And if will saves are your fighters bane the one I put up a few posts has feats left over, take a few that get around this weakness. I would suggest Iron Will and Cumbrous will. That should take care of most of your problem there, if not then there is still a ton of money he has left, get something to help that.

Really, the big problem for casters is SR. At this level nearly every creature will have some version of it (or major resistances). Chances of your mage buddy who split his levels up in any way of doing 'anything' to these monsters? nil. Chances of fighter doing something? just as good as before.

If you run into something that has too high of an ac there are things you can do. Lots of tactics cover this.

If you run into something with SR that is only moderate for the level (CR +10) the mage runs away and hides.

 

[Mordane76]

If you run into something that has too high of an ac there are things you can do. Lots of tactics cover this.

If you run into something with SR that is only moderate for the level (CR +10) the mage runs away and hides.

Why didn't the mage take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration? So far... If we're comparing Ftr 10 with Wiz10 (since you did this above), that's perfectly within his boundaries, which means he'll have a caster check against SR of 14+d20, which gets CR10 monsters with SR 20 (CR +10) on a 6 or better (70% of the time). And this Wizard could have both these feats and the Empower from above, and still have have 3 feats to spare (even as a non-human wizard).

Or, better yet, don't use spells that allow for SR... that might just work as well. I'm sure a wizard has some of those, and possibly one or two that don't allow for a save, either.

 

[Scion]

Why didn't the mage take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration? So far... If we're comparing Ftr 10 with Wiz10 (since you did this above), that's perfectly within his boundaries, which means he'll have a caster check against SR of 14+d20, which gets CR10 monsters with SR 20 (CR +10) on a 6 or better (70% of the time). And this Wizard could have both these feats and the Empower from above, and still have have 3 feats to spare (even as a non-human wizard).

not sure where fighter 10 vs wiz 10 came from, this is a discussion about multiclassing spellcasters and ways to fix them.

wiz 10 vs cr10 critter with sr 20, wiz takes two feats, 14 + d20 vs 20, not too bad, 25% of spells cast at this creature simply fail to work (generally speaking). Ouch, but liveable.

wiz5/cleric5 +2 feats = 50% chance of spells simply not having an effect. Now that is an ouch and 'NOT' liveable. Especially as after that SR they will probably get another save.

The multiclass guy will have spells that are much easier to resist, much easier to save against (especially if you start empowering 1st level spells for some reason), and their big guns went out of style 4 levels ago.

Now, with the above he'll be a wiz5/cleric5 who casts as wiz6/cleric6, he probably gains 2 or 3 more slots max, 1 more point in level based parts, and thats about it. Which means that he is 'still' under par, but at least there is some sign of his effort making a difference. He's still nearly useless in most situations other players will want him to do things for, but with this modification he is just a tad better. Getting close to even being a viable character in and out of combat as compared to his fellows. He should never have as tough of spells as the full caster, and he wont even come close, but at least at higher levels he'll have something to show for what he has done. Instead of it doing nearly nothing for him.