A solution for multiclass spellcasters? (without PrCs)

[Scion]

Or, better yet, don't use spells that allow for SR... that might just work as well. I'm sure a wizard has some of those, and possibly one or two that don't allow for a save, either.

spells that dont allow for sr or a save are generally pretty weak for their level. So now you dont have the higher level spells, are forced to use the weaker versions to try to make up for your lack of penetration or stronger spells (which is fine), but you also gain almost nothing in return. Going over the mystic theurge posts show that a straight caster casts comparable spell levels in a day, even still ahead depending on the stats.

I'm not really sure what else to say about this, I've tried playing them both ways, and even useing the theurge method its still not perfect. If I give up power I want to gain a lot of versitility, and while they do gain a pretty good amount it is nothing compared to the power lost.

Your multifighter is actually 'better' than the straight fighter, while it is the reverse for the multispellcaster, even though they are effectively doing the 'exact same thing'. One is practicing different forms of fighting, the other is practicing different forms of moving mystic energies.

Why does one get more powerful while doing so, and the other gets less powerful?

 

[Mordane76]

One is practicing different forms of fighting, the other is practicing different forms of moving mystic energies.

Why does one get more powerful while doing so, and the other gets less powerful?

There's your answer, right there.

Fighting styles are similar, and hence add to one another more readily. They are also easily countered or avoided by spellcasters with a multitude of spells that don't require one to have access to spells better than 5th level.



Mystic Energy isn't Mystic Energy -- He's practicing two or more different methods of moving two or more different types of energy. Yeah, the argument of "There's only Two Different Types" is there, but if there are only two different types, then why are there more than two different classes?

Your multifighter is actually 'better' than the straight fighter, while it is the reverse for the multispellcaster, even though they are effectively doing the 'exact same thing'.

Your 'Better' is in quotes... Why, you ask? Because what is better to you is not necessarily better to me. Straight fighters have more feats than mixed figthers... but they have other things they can do, but these don't necessarily match the potency of the feats I'm missing out.

The point of the matter is trades -- One trades one thing for another. One cannot have their cake and eat it too. I should be allowed to have a Wiz/Ftr that can get four attacks in a round and cast 9th level spells before 20th level. I shouldn't have a Wiz/Clr that can cast 7th level spells in both classes before 20th level... and so on. If you're gonna shop around in the classes, you're going to be medicore in areas where straight classed characters are experts.

 

[Scion]

Mystic Energy isn't Mystic Energy -- He's practicing two or more different methods of moving two or more different types of energy. Yeah, the argument of "There's only Two Different Types" is there, but if there are only two different types, then why are there more than two different classes?

That is your enterpretation, mine is that they are the same. If in real life you know one martial art you are on your way to the next. If you are trained in one type of computer programing you are well on your way to the next. These examples are of course not perfect, but they are still valid. The system needs a way to show this.

If I know how to drive one car then if I get into another car chances are good I'll be able to at least have the basics down already.

I even think that this extends to psionics, they all come from the same place useing the same mystical energy. Just because the implementation is slightly different ::shrugs:: not important.

Your 'Better' is in quotes... Why, you ask? Because what is better to you is not necessarily better to me. Straight fighters have more feats than mixed figthers... but they have other things they can do, but these don't necessarily match the potency of the feats I'm missing out.

The point of the matter is trades -- One trades one thing for another. One cannot have their cake and eat it too. I should be allowed to have a Wiz/Ftr that can get four attacks in a round and cast 9th level spells before 20th level. I shouldn't have a Wiz/Clr that can cast 7th level spells in both classes before 20th level... and so on. If you're gonna shop around in the classes, you're going to be medicore in areas where straight classed characters are experts.

which is fine, but you should also be much much more versitile. As for the 'better' that was there because you can multiclass your fighter in such a way that it is better than the straight fighter to just about any sort of style you are wanting. If you want the bashy type fighter/barb can be incredibly good, if you want to be more sneaky fighter/rogue..

But if you want to be at least decent at both arcane spells and divine? not a chance, sorry, game over, you lose.

Pretty harsh comparison I'm afraid, but I do feel it is just

 

[Scion]

I doubt we will ever convince one another I'm afraid. Not that that really matters we each have what we prefer. I've seen from personal experience and the numbers and both say that something has to be done.

As you dont feel that way that is fine of course, but this thread is supposed to be more towards finding a way to fix this problem. If you have no problem with it then just ignore this thread

Cardinal:

I think you have a good idea here, not sure how to take it a step further though. Perhpas it is good enough as is, what do you think?

 

[Mordane76]

Alright... Let's say I'm in a game... and we use your rules...


Let say, in Party A, I have a Wiz10/Sor10 and Wiz20. Why should the first have almost the same caster abilities as the second Wiz, and also the casting abilities of a Sor18 on top of that? Explain to me how that is fair? I've worked just as hard as this guy, but he has nearly twice as many spells as I do?! Just because I straight classed?

 

[Mordane76]

I doubt we will ever convince one another I'm afraid. Not that that really matters we each have what we prefer. I've seen from personal experience and the numbers and both say that something has to be done.

As you dont feel that way that is fine of course, but this thread is supposed to be more towards finding a way to fix this problem. If you have no problem with it then just ignore this thread

No, I doubt you'll convince me, either. I worry that people will see something like this and say, "Yes, just what I wanted, a means to power up," and DMs will say, "Sure, that seems harmless enough," and then... you've got people like the Wiz10/Sor10 who have far more firepower than any character less than 20th level should have. How does a DM plan encounters around Mr. Mystical Turret? How can an encounter planned around Mr. Mystical Turret not obliterate the equally level Ftr combos?

 

[Scion]

Alright... Let's say I'm in a game... and we use your rules...
Let say, in Party A, I have a Wiz10/Sor10 and Wiz20. Why should the first have almost the same caster abilities as the second Wiz, and also the casting abilities of a Sor18 on top of that? Explain to me how that is fair? I've worked just as hard as this guy, but he has nearly twice as many spells as I do?! Just because I straight classed?

ok, now lets say there are two people, one wiz (or cleric) 20 and the other wiz10/clr10, the straight 20 can do everything and more that the wiz10/clr10 can do, only a lot better. How would you feel that you had given up so much power and had gotten nearly nothing in return? compared to the higher guy at least. Your spells are rarely noticed, if you have all of your buffs up you might be on par if you really worked at it, and you will probably never have the spotlight.

How would you fix it then?

I said earlier, neither system was perfect, so step up to the plate and give us your fix. If you see no need for a fix at all then we'll agree not to talk about this sort of thing anymore

 

[Mordane76]

ok, now lets say there are two people, one wiz (or cleric) 20 and the other wiz10/clr10, the straight 20 can do everything and more that the wiz10/clr10 can do, only a lot better. How would you feel that you had given up so much power and had gotten nearly nothing in return? compared to the higher guy at least. Your spells are rarely noticed, if you have all of your buffs up you might be on par if you really worked at it, and you will probably never have the spotlight.

How would you fix it then?

That's the point though -- you chose to be a Jack of Trades, and not to focus and become an expert. Why should you be given anything extra?


But, if we're talking about a FIX that's different than just automatically stacking levels or the MT... I'm of the mind that feats would work. You're forced to trade something in, you aren't getting it for nothing, and you limit your abilities elsewhere in the process by advancing your spellcasting levels. This would allow that Wiz10/Clr10, if he spent his feats to get to Wiz17/Clr17, but he would have no General Feats left, and I think (at least at this juncture, barring thinking about it further) I'd be okay with that.

 

[Scion]

That's the point though -- you chose to be a Jack of Trades, and not to focus and become an expert. Why should you be given anything extra?

But, if we're talking about a FIX that's different than just automatically stacking levels or the MT... I'm of the mind that feats would work. You're forced to trade something in, you aren't getting it for nothing, and you limit your abilities elsewhere in the process by advancing your spellcasting levels. This would allow that Wiz10/Clr10, if he spent his feats to get to Wiz17/Clr17, but he would have no General Feats left, and I think (at least at this juncture, barring thinking about it further) I'd be okay with that.

If a character chooses to be the jack of all trades, master of none, then I think that they should be, and your wiz10/cleric10 falls unable in my opinion.

I'm glad that you agree with me to some extent though But I am unsure as to why you dislike the MT at this point. If it is ok to give up all of your feats in order to gain the benefit of the MT but keep a few other class abilities then why is it not ok to give up pretty much all of these other class abilities and keep most of your feats? Seems like the same shoe on either foot, but one you might be ok with, while the other is the bane of your existance. Seems strange

Ahh well. Perhaps we will be able to talk about it some other time Have a good one all.

Oh yeah, cardinal? if you have any more ideas I'd love to hear them!

 

[FrankTrollman]

This is just a Virtual Caster Level system. I've seen them before. They don't work.

Under the 3rd edition multiclassing system, a Wizard can afford to spend about 1 level picking up some other cool ability without falling too far below the power curve. Take more than that, and he essentially might as well not show up.

Under a VCL system, you still have the same problem. Once you've lost 2 caster levels, you are an entire spell level behind the curve. The number of levels you can afford to lose is still a finite number - it's just slightly larger.

Now you can take two Fighter levels instead of just one and still be in the game. Woo-hoo. Except of course, that if you split Fighter and Wizard you are still going to be obsolete. You'll do it at level 6 instead of level 4, but it still happens to you, so the VCL system hasn't actually solved anything.
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The basic problem is, that your number of Wizard Caster levels currently sets:

* The number of tricks you can do.
* The save DC of your only meaningful offensive abilities.
* Your ability to penetrate SR.
* The amount of damage your offensive abilities inflict.
* The duration for your tricks.

Now, the first one is kind of like a feat, a limited use ability, or any other class feature. When you take a level of Rogue you might get the "uncanny dodge" ability, and when you take a level of Wizard you might get the "web" ability.

But the rest of it is simply your ability to matter at your character level.

If your Caster Level is 11 or less when you fight a Pit Fiend, there is no chance whatsoever that you can affect it with spells.

When you fight a Roper, you had better be able to get a 30 (and thus, have a caster level of 10 or more) or your spells can't work.

And so on.

If your fireballs aren't scaling, you may as well not cast them. It would be like a Fighter not getting feats and weapon upgrades - the game just isn't designed for that.
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If you want multiclass wizards to be able to compete, you're going to have to remove all of the game mechanical directives which require them to have caster levels.

That means that save DCs can't be set by the highest spell level you can cast, nor by your Wizard level. I suggest 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Int Bonus. Just like the Wizard's spells were a Monster Ability.

That means that penetrating SR can't be set by your class level - it has to be set by your character level.

That means that your spell durations and damage dice can't be set by your class level, they have to be set by your character level.

----

Once you've done that, of course, you don't really need a VCL system. When you take a level of Rogue you get a neat ability that you can use all the time, when you take a level of wizard you get some really nice abilities that can each be used only once per day.

-Frank