A solution for multiclass spellcasters? (without PrCs)

[Silverglass]

<snip>
mixed examples:

Clr4/Wiz5/Sorc7/Drd4 = Wiz (5+(5+7-3)/4)+2= wiz9
Sorc (7+(5+7-3)/4)+2= sor11
Clr (4+(4+4-3)/4)+4= clr9
Drd (4+(4+4-3)/4)+4= drd9

Wiz6/Sorc6/Brd5/Clr3 = Wiz (6+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1= wiz10
Sorc (6+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1= sor10
Brd (5+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1 = brd9
Clr 3+5= clr8

Sorc14/Wiz3/Clr3 = Wiz (3+(3+14-3)/4)+1= wiz 7
Sorc (14+(14+3-3)/4)+1= sorc18
Clr 3+5= clr8

Pal5/Clr6/Brd4 = Pal (5+(5+6-3)/3)+1= pal8
Clr (6+(5+6-3)/3)+1= clr9
Brd 4+3= brd7


Comments?

I think that, in principle, this is a valid point of view but the solution has been taken too far.

The suggestion that there should be a synergy between spellcasting classes that just increases Caster Level is too powerful as it leads to a multiclass character having more spells of almost comparable spell level to a single class, this is wrong and unbalancing.

What should probably be addressed is the difficult of penetrating SR for multiclass casters and possibly the variable effects.

So IMO the examples above the adjusted caster level would improve the chances of beating SR but would not give more spells per day. Even for a Wiz 10/Sor 10 counting as an 18th Level caster they are still 2 pips worse at beating SR than a straight caster and they are limited to 5th level spells rather than 9th level spells (with correpsonding lower DCs), that is not an unbalancing solution in my viewpoint.

Another extension could be to allow the increased caster level to affect variable aspects of the spells. So the Wiz6/Sorc6/Brd5/Clr3 above would do 10d6 damage with his fireball and roll 1d20+10 to beat SR. That is an increase in power but still makes his spells less powerful than a Wizard 20.

And of course you could adjust the formula a bit to give lower numbers if desired, which personally I would do if this effective caster level also applied to variable spell effects as well (off the top of my head a bonus of half the other classes caster level if its the same type of casting, one third if it is different, so a Wiz10/Sor 10 gets effective 15 and a Wiz 10/Cleric 10 gets an effective 13 or only allow this for similar caster types so a Clerc/Ranger gets a boost but a Wiz/Ranger doesn't).

 

[Scion]

Well... if you want the clerical powers to increase... then take more levels of cleric than Wizard -- Problem solved!

what problem? I said that they gave up power for power. This is fine.

As for the Sor10/Wiz10 = Sor18/Wiz18 thing... I'm glad you see SOME of the problem with that. Still, I can't believe someone would advocate such blatant increases in power, and I'm still stunned that WotC did it themselves with MT, considering many of the changes they made to spells in general (which overall, IMO, created a general powering-down of spellcasters). It's sort of dubious -- "We're going to weaken spellcasters in general through modifications their spells, but we're going to allow them to take this nifty PrC that stacks up Wiz/Clr levels such that you'll be a powerhouse in both, so the changes we made to the spells don't really matter."

Without a lot of the killer prc's out there (and a couple overpowered spells)wizards and sorcerers were for the most part very very weak, interesting still, but weak. If you didnt go for certain combinations of powers then your roll was basically to hope your spells kept you entertained enough to play the game, and that your party didnt try pushing you towards something more effective in and out of combat.

So I shall be amazed and confused that you 'dont' see a problem with the straight wiz10/clr10. Spells are nice, but since only top level spells help in appropriate cr (or higher, since most modules I've seen advocate a big baddy of up to 4CR higher). Good luck with your wiz10/clr10 then. Must be nice to be a 20th level character, maybe you will prove to be a tasty snack

In any event, I think the mystic theurge is great, you give up power and gain some power back. They are different kinds of power going each way. Although, even with people running through all levels of it and still saying that it somewhat subpar and you still think it is horribly overpowered.... ::shrugs::

Give up some power, gain other power. The only real problem currently is that the multiclassing system doesnt work appropriately for it. A fair way to give up power and get other power would be nice. (fair is in the eyes of the beholder of course, and my view is different than yours apparently)

Again though, as I asked earlier, if you see no problem with the system as is then why are you in this thread at all?

 

[howandwhy99]

I don't know if the Mystic Theurge was brought up yet, but that was Wizard's answer to this problem. An MT advances with two spellcasting classes spell progressions, but takes a hit because of the multiclass.
Because of prereqs you must be able to cast 2nd level spells in both classes. There are more, but I'll get on with it.

For example, a CL6 - clr3/wiz3 advances for 10 levels under MT to have a CL16 - clr13/wiz13 spell progression.

Many people think even this is too powerful. I know SKR wrote on the idea of moving the prereqs to 3rd level spells. Essentially making the spell progressions 5 levels behind a straight class character. (clr15/wiz15)CL20.

I like the system you are creating, but it still seems high comparatively.

 

[Cheiromancer]

mixed examples:

Clr4/Wiz5/Sorc7/Drd4 = Wiz (5+(5+7-3)/4)+2= wiz9
Sorc (7+(5+7-3)/4)+2= sor11
Clr (4+(4+4-3)/4)+4= clr9
Drd (4+(4+4-3)/4)+4= drd9

Wiz6/Sorc6/Brd5/Clr3 = Wiz (6+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1= wiz10
Sorc (6+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1= sor10
Brd (5+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1 = brd9
Clr 3+5= clr8

Sorc14/Wiz3/Clr3 = Wiz (3+(3+14-3)/4)+1= wiz 7
Sorc (14+(14+3-3)/4)+1= sorc18
Clr 3+5= clr8

Pal5/Clr6/Brd4 = Pal (5+(5+6-3)/3)+1= pal8
Clr (6+(5+6-3)/3)+1= clr9
Brd 4+3= brd7


Comments?

I think I would use a different method. Like the following, perhaps:

bonus spellcasting levels: The bonus to class level for a full spellcasting class (wiz, sor, clr or drd) can be up to the base class level, but can't exceed 3 and can't exceed a spellcasting cap. To find the spellcasting cap, add together your two highest class levels and subtract 3. Don't apply a bonus spellcasting level if it would increase the caster level above this cap.

So a wizard 2/fighter 8 would get a bonus of +2 to his wizard level. The bonus can't exceed his level in wizard, which is 2.

A wizard 4/fighter 8 would get a bonus of +3 to his wizard level. The bonus can't exceed 3.

A wizard 4/fighter 4 would get a bonus of +1 to his wizard level. The cap is (4+4-3)=5, so his wizard level can't be raised above 5.

A wizard 5/fighter 1 receives no benefit. (The cap is 5+1-3=3, which is lower than his existing level).

A wizard 5/fighter 5/cleric 5 would get a +2 bonus to his wizard and cleric level. The cap in this case is (5+5-3). A wizard 5/fighter 5/alienist 5 would get no benefit- his caster level is 10, which is above the cap (5+5-3).

The level bonus applies to special abilities like familiar improvement and turning undead as well as spellcasting. It doesn't apply to hit dice, skill points, BAB or saves.

Here are how your original examples work out:

Clr4/Wiz5/Sorc7/Drd4 - cap is (7+5-3)=9, max bonus is +3
wiz 5+3 = wiz 8
sor 7+3=10->9
clr 3+5= clr 8
drd 4+3=drd 7

Wiz6/Sorc6/Brd5/Clr3 - cap is (6+6-3)=9, max bonus is +3
wiz 6+3 = wiz 9
sorc 6+3= sor 9
brd 5 = brd 5 (no bonus)
clr 3+3= clr 6

Sorc14/Wiz3/Clr3 - cap is (14+3-3)=14, max bonus is +3
wiz 3+3 = wiz 6
sorc = sorc 14
clr 3+3= clr 6

Pal5/Clr6/Brd4 - cap is (5+6-3)=8, max bonus is
pal 5 = pal 5 (no bonus)
clr 6+3= clr 9->clr 8
brd 4= brd 4 (no bonus)