A thief run town... How?

[DrunkonDuty]

So I'm just reading the latest OOTS (603) and Haley is in her home town that is entirely run by the Thieves Guild.

But I'm having trouble with a town that is totally under the thumb of a Thieves Guild. Specifically I'm having trouble working out how exactly a (fantasy RPG) town can be run by thieves. Assuming a standard fantasy town with Lord Mayor, temples, trade guilds, town guard, etc. If all of them are run by the thieves doesn't the fact that they run it make them the government? Why then do the thieves need to be secret at all? Is skulking in the shadows just habit? Or do the thieves suffer from some middle class sense of morality that makes them punish their wicked ids by forever hiding in darkness? (OK that's too silly even for DnD.)

So can anyone out there in ENWorld offer suggestions as to how to create a compelling, playable fantasy city that's run by the Thieves Guild but where the tThieves are still operating in the shadows.

I'm open to anything here: grand design philosophies, plot hooks, colourful characters, playable PCs and historical examples.

cheers folks.
Glen

 

[MichaelSomething]

Theives rules because money talks.

Staying secret can always be a good thing if you know how to work it.

Real world example of theives guild like organizations include gangs and mobsters. I suggest watching History Channel's "Gangland."

 

[Rechan]

So I'm just reading the latest OOTS (603) and Haley is in her home town that is entirely run by the Thieves Guild.

But I'm having trouble with a town that is totally under the thumb of a Thieves Guild. Specifically I'm having trouble working out how exactly a (fantasy RPG) town can be run by thieves. Assuming a standard fantasy town with Lord Mayor, temples, trade guilds, town guard, etc. If all of them are run by the thieves doesn't the fact that they run it make them the government? Why then do the thieves need to be secret at all? Is skulking in the shadows just habit? Or do the thieves suffer from some middle class sense of morality that makes them punish their wicked ids by forever hiding in darkness? (OK that's too silly even for DnD.)

In a city, which out numbers which: citizens, or authority figures?

Answer: Citizens.

Of some thieves were literally the government, and being literal thieves, representatives of the government kick down your door and steal your valuables, well after about the third time, you are going to have a riot on your hands. Having the veneer of "Everything is normal" is a very powerful tool, especially when you're not waving the fact in front of the citizenry. Gulags, death camps and secret prisons aren't exactly housed in city parks, after all, they're held in undisclosed locations.

It's a control issue. And organized crime likes to be organized about things, rather than having a sense of lawlessness. When you have lawlessness, you can't control the citizenry, and you have a serious chance of getting ganked by your neighbor. Or the citizenry panic, or try to rebel, because their government are a bunch of tyrants that rob the citizenry.

Also, the problem with the Thieves Guild officially running the place is that the Thieves Guild has to run the government. Bob the Pickpocket doesn't want to handle government work, he should pick pockets. The Guildmaster doesn't want to deal with roads, he wants to sit back and enjoy the spoils of his guild.

Stop saying "Thieves Guild" and think more like "Mafia". The mafia are the equivalent of a thieves guild. An organization of men who carry out illegal activities under the guise of proper business, have general codes, pay off officials, and otherwise deal with corruption. Back in the 30s-40s, Mafioso ran some areas of Italy; in Russia, a large percentage of the banks are Russian Mafia banks; several US cities are rife with corruption. Just take it one step further, and you have a thieves guild.

Despite the Mafia having the leaders in their pocket, they don't advertise. They do their thing in secret. Skulking in the shadows, if you will.

Another point is that you can have government-sanctioned illegal activity. Wetworks, espionage, secret police. The KGB didn't exactly advertise. In Eberron, in the nation of Zilargo, there are no police, no jails. The government employs an agency known as the Trust, a bunch of spies and illusionists and spellcasters who work to put criminals down without much of a fuss. And the citizenry are happy, because they keep the peace, and keep other nations out of their hair.

So imagine if this government-sanctioned organization decided "Hey, we have power to do what we want in the name of our government. So let's do a silent coup." There you go.

Or, the Thieves Guild could be the equivalent of a corporation. A private business that does it's business-ing, but it has funded the organization(s) that run government, helped those who are sympathetic to the corporation gain power, in exchange for support. If you're a noble, you want the guild's approval, so they don't sanction anyone robbing you. This corp also can be hired by citizens, both to steal specific things, and to do espionage ("What is the special ingredient in my rival baker's kitchen he puts in his bread? I must know!")

In exchange, the Guild keeps crime down, because if you're doing crime without their approval, they hunt you down and do bad things to you. So they're tolerated, as a "Devil you know".

 

[Rechan]

I can think of two examples from fantasy.

Terry Pratchett had a city where the Thieves Guild was so powerful, it was a recognized form of the government; everyone was assumed to get robbed every now and then, and if the Guild thought you were robbed too much, they could even issue you an IOU.

Another fantasy series had a recognized Assassin's Guild. The Assassin Guild was allowed to have official headquarters and operate like any other business, as long as they 1) Never tried to kill the ruler (and in fact killed anyone trying to pay them to do it), 2) Never got caught doing the deed, otherwise they would get treated like a criminal, and 3) other stuff I'm forgetting because I read it six or so years ago. There was probably something in there about "not killing too much" or what kinda targets you could have, taxes, etc.

 

[Ourph]

So can anyone out there in ENWorld offer suggestions as to how to create a compelling, playable fantasy city that's run by the Thieves Guild but where the Thieves are still operating in the shadows.

Lankhmar?

 

[Loonook]

Drunk... you're going to make me write more Good Gaming articles... just when I thought I was done with it, dragging me back in!

I've been seeing a lot of these 'well, how does X/Y/@ work in a society?' Since I don't want this to be a full-fledged article I'll go over the basics:

- A guild for thieves doesn't need to be exclusively Rogue: Just like any other guild, a group of thieves isn't singly classed. While you could technically have many different hats that can be covered by the rogue class, it is best to use rogues as some (but not all) of the major players in such a guild. There are plenty of half-classes which fit well, along with rogue-like PrCs (assuming 3.X). Bards, Assassins, Arcane Tricksters, Scouts, etc. serve as a hearty mid-level backbone, but the use of Fighters and other heavies will serve the guild well (especially if using some of the related thief-based options in PHBII and UA.

- A guild for thieves is part think tank, part market, and part political machine: Remember the mention in the Godfather where there is discussion of the carrying of judges and police officers in the pockets of the Don like so many nickels and dimes? Well, an ounce of copper corruption saves the need for a pound of silver-tongues in this day and age, and there would be no difference in a guild of this nature. Since skills are omnipresent great minds rise to the top, and sages can find a good amount of work with an organization which may need to know about hidden architectures, or the history of that crypt in the center of the Imperial Graveyards. Combine all of this with the need for liquidity and the ready access to materials mundane and arcane and the guild is an amazing mercantile and political interest with several layers of different skills and talents available.

- A guild of thieves can run a city if they have the everything working for them: Corruptions, machinations, and the almighty gold coin give steps towards the conquering, but the guild operates best with some backing. Most real-world criminal organizations have large amounts of cultural and historical backing (there is an honor amongst thieves, as it were), and the concepts which keep a guild in power would be similar. Pay off the right individuals, quiet the screams of those who may know too much, and keep your guild happy and healthy... thus you will survive as an organization.

That's pretty basic; I would suggest looking into the various criminal organizations of Italy (not just the classic 'american' concept... there are very religious and filial societies, along with groups which look more like a 'guild' structure) along with the South American cartels who actually employ practitioners of Santeria and local mystic traditions to protect them.

Now imagine Escobar with Protection from Bullets, or how the Apalachin conference plays out when the mafioso have prying eyes all around the compound.

Yeah... good times.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[justanobody]

The people the public sees running the town are actually just the puppets for the thieves. The real people running the town are never seen in the public but hiding in the shadows instead.

 

[Rechan]

Another, very fantasy option: A church.

The patron god of the city might be the God of Thieves, for some reason. Perhaps the God's avatar blessed this town (or the man who ascended to Godhood was born here). For whatever reason, the Church of the Thief God is powerful here. And the Church is, naturally, related to thievery, and thus it's both a religious operation and a thieves guild. And because the church is so powerful in this city, it also has power over the government.

 

[Orius]

Stop saying "Thieves Guild" and think more like "Mafia". The mafia are the equivalent of a thieves guild. An organization of men who carry out illegal activities under the guise of proper business, have general codes, pay off officials, and otherwise deal with corruption.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I have my Thieves' Guilds set up, they're all Mafia.

 

[Treebore]

So I'm just reading the latest OOTS (603) and Haley is in her home town that is entirely run by the Thieves Guild.

But I'm having trouble with a town that is totally under the thumb of a Thieves Guild. Specifically I'm having trouble working out how exactly a (fantasy RPG) town can be run by thieves. Assuming a standard fantasy town with Lord Mayor, temples, trade guilds, town guard, etc. If all of them are run by the thieves doesn't the fact that they run it make them the government? Why then do the thieves need to be secret at all? Is skulking in the shadows just habit? Or do the thieves suffer from some middle class sense of morality that makes them punish their wicked ids by forever hiding in darkness? (OK that's too silly even for DnD.)

So can anyone out there in ENWorld offer suggestions as to how to create a compelling, playable fantasy city that's run by the Thieves Guild but where the tThieves are still operating in the shadows.

I'm open to anything here: grand design philosophies, plot hooks, colourful characters, playable PCs and historical examples.

cheers folks.
Glen

Read up on the history of Chicago.