A thing about d20 D&D I didn't like, and still don't know why it was done...

[Desdichado]

There was never a shiny, happy ENWorld. That's nostolgia talking.

ENWorld has lost its sense of wonder. I guess I just don't get all the spiky clothes and anime references, not to mention the stupid messageboard powerups and emphasis on postcount and joindate.

Eric Noah's 3rd Edition News (1999) is the only true D&D messageboard. All others are a pale imitation of the real thing.

 

[Raven Crowking]

ENWorld has lost its sense of wonder. I guess I just don't get all the spiky clothes and anime references, not to mention the stupid messageboard powerups and emphasis on postcount and joindate.

Eric Noah's 3rd Edition News (1999) is the only true D&D messageboard. All others are a pale imitation of the real thing.

LOL!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Hey dungeondelver, could you please provide a breakdown of how the example you gave in your OP results in lesser or greater amounts of required XP by each class? On a class-by-class basis, I mean (with amounts even?)

Sorry if I'm "just not getting it". Perhaps it's an off day or something. Anyway, if you could, it would be appreciated. Also, if this has been posted already, my apologies.

Thanks.

 

[Seeten]

Funny story, I had, in AD&D days, DMs tell me such things as, "I'm sorry, you cant be a pirate, you dont know how to swim, or do anything on a boat. You dont have the skills."

Or this gem, "You cant leap onto the chandelier and swing your weapon, you arent a thief-acrobat, only they can do that".

Or this, "Make up your own spell like Bigby did? I'm not allowing you to make spells, and I'm sure as hell not doing the extra work."

I don't know what fantasy land other people lived in, but in the real world, I was denied millions of standard fantasy concepts because they werent in the rules, and the DM had no intention of kludging it together. I left gaming for 10 solid years, and when I came back, I played RM, Champions, Vampire and Werewolf, because I could make a character that suited me, within the rules, without anyone elses by your leave. There is a great line in "The Last of the Mohicans" about this.

Edition wars aren't cool, but I started playing D&D in 1978 and I dunno who has all the rose colored glasses, but I remember a LOT of frustration.

 

[MerricB]

Even the narratives in front of 1e and BECM adventures tend to talk in terms of levels. The front might have a range, but the little intro section would talk about either an average party level or a total levels of all party levels appropriate for the adventure. These sections assume that a level has a relatively inflexible meaning in terms of character power.

Hmm - I will say that levels didn't mean quite so much for character power in AD&D as in 3e. The difference between a 5th level fighter and a 7th level fighter, whilst real, wasn't so pronounced. Magic-Users were the only classes that really gained significant power from a new level, and even then the lack of potency of their higher level spells ameliorated against that.

Sure, fireball looks good, but it has some massive drawbacks in a dungeon... and ice storm as a 4th level spell? Hmm.

Damage and hitpoints didn't change so much between levels.

The real trouble was that level wasn't a good gauge of PC power, and the systems that required you to compare PC level to monster HD (XP and treasure acquisition) fell apart quite a bit at higher levels.

Cheers!

 

[molonel]

Funny story, I had, in AD&D days, DMs tell me such things as, "I'm sorry, you cant be a pirate, you dont know how to swim, or do anything on a boat. You dont have the skills." Or this gem, "You cant leap onto the chandelier and swing your weapon, you arent a thief-acrobat, only they can do that". Or this, "Make up your own spell like Bigby did? I'm not allowing you to make spells, and I'm sure as hell not doing the extra work." I don't know what fantasy land other people lived in, but in the real world, I was denied millions of standard fantasy concepts because they werent in the rules, and the DM had no intention of kludging it together. I left gaming for 10 solid years, and when I came back, I played RM, Champions, Vampire and Werewolf, because I could make a character that suited me, within the rules, without anyone elses by your leave. There is a great line in "The Last of the Mohicans" about this. Edition wars aren't cool, but I started playing D&D in 1978 and I dunno who has all the rose colored glasses, but I remember a LOT of frustration.

My stories aren't quite that bad, but I evidently missed the whole "1st Edition AD&D is gaming Nirvana!" experience, too. It was cool and all. But I wouldn't go back to it.

 

[Aaron L]

ENWorld has lost its sense of wonder. I guess I just don't get all the spiky clothes and anime references, not to mention the stupid messageboard powerups and emphasis on postcount and joindate.

Eric Noah's 3rd Edition News (1999) is the only true D&D messageboard. All others are a pale imitation of the real thing.

You made me giggle JR, and that's a rare thing

 

[I'm A Banana]

My stories aren't quite that bad, but I evidently missed the whole "1st Edition AD&D is gaming Nirvana!" experience, too. It was cool and all. But I wouldn't go back to it.

My guess is, either they had good DMs who were naturals with game material and could kludge 1e into something amazing despite or because of its flaws (certainly, 1e depended a lot upon having a high-quality, dedicated DM running it)....or they were such DMs.

Which kind of explains why so many are very nervous about giving players "too much power" or 3e "making DMs unable to say no," etc. I mean, if I had my great 1e game that, with its layers of house rules, was skyrockets of fun with my groups, I'd be kind of threatened if someone came along and showed me a way they thought was better for me. I'd be all "No. I know what's good for me, you guys are free to offer whatever, but you'll just have to butt out because my way is going to be so much better than yours for my folks."

I'm willing to place money on the fact that every good 1e game came from a dynamite DM. I wouldn't put that bet on 3e, because it can be pretty good from a mediocre DM (though a dynamite DM can make it even better).

 

[RFisher]

Exactly what the difference between some of those are is still unclear to me

You do understand that that table was a joke? Just like the +3 backscratcher.

Funny story, I had, in AD&D days, DMs tell me such things as, "I'm sorry, you cant be a pirate, you dont know how to swim, or do anything on a boat. You dont have the skills."

Or this gem, "You cant leap onto the chandelier and swing your weapon, you arent a thief-acrobat, only they can do that".

Or this, "Make up your own spell like Bigby did? I'm not allowing you to make spells, and I'm sure as hell not doing the extra work."

Yeah. The group I played oAD&D with had similar struggles with the game.

The version of classic D&D I play these days, however is at least clear that every PC can swim & that even 1st level MU/elves can create new spells. The swashbuckling bit is left to the DM to adjudicate, but I'm fine with that. For some campaigns I might want a cinematic feel; for others, I might not.

I can't really blame DMs, though. I think the books often did a poor job of communicating the game.

 

[Desdichado]

You do understand that that table was a joke? Just like the +3 backscratcher.

It was a +2 backscratcher, actually (either that or a magic item that cast Bigby's hand type spells.) And it may have been tongue in cheek, but it was not a joke like the little cartoons nestled here and there where they had a little bit of extra white space to fill. It's an actual town/city encounter sub-table.