A variant take on tiers - paragon and epic as modular options

[Mercurius]

SNIP

If that's what you're suggesting, it sounds like a terrific idea to me.

That's exactly what I'm proposing - thanks for essentializing it for me.

Presumably, the DMG would include some sort of level adjustment so DMs could figure out how 12th level characters with 6 "paragon" levels compare to 12th level characters with only heroic abilities. I should also note that a different module could provide "Kingmaker" levels where characters can abilities appropriate for kingdom management, mass combat and realm-affecting magic.

Right - I was thinking about level adjustments but didn't come up with anything good. It may be that, in terms of monsters, the equivalent of Challenge Rating relates to basic/adventurer levels and paragon and epic paths add an adjustment. Off the top of my head, if a 12th level basic character is equivalent to CR12, maybe 10th/2nd Paragon would be equivalent to CR14. In other words, maybe every Paragon level is worth 2 and every Epic 3. Or something like that.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, what happens if the style of game I like is a little more on the scrounging-for-every-copper, slaying-dire-rats-in-a-sewer, not-so-proud end of the continuum?

I mean, I basically came to the same idea in the re-imagining thread, so I definitely think you're on to something, but your starting point is already too high for a lot of groups, and adding on 3 extra "modules" might not be great for people who want to cut off mountains, but who also want to be SIMPLE characters. Though I suppose there's nothing inherent to the idea that they are prerequisites for each other...

 

[KidSnide]

So, what happens if the style of game I like is a little more on the scrounging-for-every-copper, slaying-dire-rats-in-a-sewer, not-so-proud end of the continuum?

If that's the style of game you like, they you just keep gaining levels without ever getting an paragon path or epic destiny. The idea behind this idea is that these "high level components" are an optional part of your character rather than a thing everyone takes at 11th and 21st level.

I mean, I basically came to the same idea in the re-imagining thread, so I definitely think you're on to something, but your starting point is already too high for a lot of groups, and adding on 3 extra "modules" might not be great for people who want to cut off mountains, but who also want to be SIMPLE characters. Though I suppose there's nothing inherent to the idea that they are prerequisites for each other...

It's a fair point, although the solution to that is starting with a less complicated class (think the Slayer Fighter or the Elementalist Sorcerer) and hopefully some of the paragon paths and epic destinies will be of a less complicated variety.

I think one of the other keys to this is to make these paths/destinies more flexible and less numerous than 4e paragon paths. PCs are still getting their class abilities, so all you need is to figure out the combination of genre-appropriate movement and stunt abilities and then let the PC pick for a selection of appropriate "waa-hoo" abilities for just the right doze of awesome.

Frankly, you can probably get half-way to a wuxia campaign, by just reducing all the athletics and acrobatics DCs by 15.

-KS

 

[Minigiant]

Here is Gom the 10th level dwarf fighter.

Adventurer Gom is just a 70HP humanoid with dwarf traits and +7 to attacks.

Paragon "Gladiator" Gom is a 70HP humanoid with dwarf traits, +7 to attacks, blindsense out 30ft, +4 when speaking to crowds, and always crits prone enemies.

Epic "Demigod of Strength" Gom is a 70HP humanoid with dwarf traits, +7 to attacks, immunity to disease and death spells, can self revive once a day, can reroll intimidation attempts once, and has triple run speed, carrying capacity and jump distances.

Something like that?

 

[Mercurius]

Yes and no, [MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION]. "Yes," that's the basic idea, but "No" in that Gom couldn't really be Epic until much later, so it would make more sense to compare him as a 21+ level character when he could have taken one of three different paths:

1) Stay as an "Adventurer" style character.
2) Add a Paragon Path (at 11th or later).
3) Add an Epic Destiny (at 21st or later).

A side question would be whether an Epic Destiny requires a Paragon Path, but I don't think that's very important at this stage of the game.

I would imagine that an Adventurer (or Core) character would slow advancement after 10th level, something like in AD&D when HP went from a hit die to +1 to +4, depending upon class, and with minimal increases in other stats (defenses, AC, attack, skills).

A Paragon Path would not only add unique powers - say, a new "Paragon Talent" each level - but would include full Hit Dice for HP and maybe bonuses to other statistics related to the Paragon Path. In a sense the main difference between an Adventurer and Paragon is that an Adventurer slows advancement while a Paragon continues at a similar pace as 1-10 level, with the addition of more heroic Paragon Talents.

The same kind of bifurcation would occur with an Epic Destiny and, possibly, an Immortal equivalent.

This isn't exact, but I imagine something like this:

The point being, the curve flattens after a new "tier" option is introduced for characters that don't take that new option. All characters start as Adventurer tier and advance at the same pace through 10 levels. Then Adventurers start flattening out while Paragons continue the same pace of advancement. After 20 levels, Adventurers continue at a flatter rate of advancement, while Paragons start flattening out. Etc.

In this variant, all "tiers" have ten full levels and then, after 10 levels, still advance but at a slowed pace.

Maybe this over-complicates things, I don't know. But the thing I like about it is that it allows open-ended advancement for all characters, whether grim-and-gritty or gonzo-style. A 40th level Adventurer-style character would be a wizened old hero, but wouldn't be that much more powerful than at 20th level. But a 40th level Immortal would be a veritable demigod. Both have equivalent experience, and thus level, but the latter character "opened up" Paragon, Epic, and Immortal options. Think of the difference between, say, Odysseus and Achilles or Arthur and Merlin.