A very reluctant question: how does one have fun with the Book of Exalted Deeds?

[jester47]

When the book of Vile Darkness came out, I thought it was really cool. There was some stuff in there that I thought I could use. But as time went on I found it less and less useful (especially after 3.5). Some of the magic items were cool, some of the monsters were cool (the alien inspired creatures inspired some cool ideas of D&D meets aliens but by and large like the necromancer games N'gathau who inspire the cynobites from hellraiser, I found them to be a waste of space). The real killer awas the vile damage. This made things much harder to use as it multiplied the kinds of damage a character had to keep track of. The spell types made it hard to use the spells, and so the only things that were really useful were a few of the feats, magic items, and monster descriptions. When I looked at the Book of Exalted Deeds, I got very much the same impression ad decided that it was too much for my game.

 

[Particle_Man]

As an alternative, you could run a game with evil PCs where the BoED characters and creatures are their antagonists.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I like the idea that Good pays. The idea that going through the hardships of playing a good character (much less a paladin) pays dividends, is a good one. It's about time, really.
But the other players will not tolerate it: not even a party of all good characters will tolerate it. I know that, through multiple bad experiences. I wish it weren't so, but that is my experience.

I think it depends more on the DM than the players.

I think that for a successful Exalted game, the DM has to go in with the belief that Good Pays Off In The End. I'm not talking about mechanical whatis and Exalted bonuses and all that. I'm saying that if the party bites the bullet and does the hard thing in the short run, gives second chances, shows mercy, and stands resolute against easy short term gain, then in the long term they should be rewarded for it. The guy they gave a second chance should repay their trust. Opponents, even if they don't reform completely, should be affected by their goodness. Resisting temptation should earn them a good reputation.

If the party does Good and gets kicked in the teeth for it, then of course they'll come to resent the Exalted characters. "Hey, we acted like suckers! We went along with all this stuff and now we're the worse off for it, while you get all these cool Exalted bonuses. You suck."

The biggest example that's coming to my mind right now is that TV show, "My Name is Earl". It's all about the karma.

 

[William Ronald]

Your group needs to be onboard with the idea. Simple as that. If they are not mature enough to see it as a role-play opportunity for the group instead of a straightjacket for their hedonism, then save yourself the headache and file away that exalted character concept for the right game. In any event, do not push an exalted PC onto your group--ask them first if they're okay with it.

I think that it is important for a group to be on board with running an Exalted campaign. I have some problems with both the BoED and the BoVD, in that ultimate good and ultimate evil seem to be something that mortals can understand. (I would argue that on the scale of things in a D&D campaign, mortal characters would have very limited understanding in comparison with their gods. Also, I am not comfortable with all the value judgements of the BoED, as different cultures can see good and evil differently.)

There are many ways to handle good and evil in a campaign. The core rules assumes that good and evil, law, chaos, and neutrality have some objective existence and can be detected. Indeed, they can be perhaps thought of as basic forces of the D&D multiverse. In contrast, Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed has no alignment rules, but it is still possible to describe characters or practices as good or evil.

One important aspect of a successful campaign is that players have some shared goals. So, I think that it is important to follow the advice ForceUser mentioned. It is important for players to be on board with the overall concepts of a campaign.

(I also agree with Henry on editing the title line.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I changed the thread title. Thanks, Henry.
Colonel Hardisson, I posted the question at Nothingland also.

Ironically, sexual pleasure was an Exalted Thing in itself, in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
So, I suppose, there could be an Exalted Hedonist.

When I was very new to the game, I was into playing Good characters. This ran contrary to everyone else around me, who were into playing Evil characters.
Several years later, when Edena the Cleric reached about 9th level, I started playing him as an Exalted character. There were no rules to reward the Exalted character then, just the satisfaction of rping such a character.
That didn't last very long.

The level of anger and resentment I encountered was astonishing. In a few cases, it actually devolved into outright hatred.
The idea that a character would actually dare to try and change the campaign world (as an Exalted character is going to attempt) was anaethema to DM and players alike.

I am very happy to hear that some of you are enjoying the Book of Exalted Deeds, and that you made it work for you. Because this means there is hope I can make it work for me.

I would absolutely agree with what you said: everyone must agree on it beforehand. Of course, when I played no such book existed, and there was no party consensus beforehand on how to play. So, aside from dissatisfaction with my character, people had dissatisfactions otherwise with everyone else.
It's important to decide what kind of campaign it will be beforehand.

I discussed this with a friend last night.
We thought that Ravenloft would be a great place for Exalted characters.
We thought Krynn would be a good place for Exalted characters.
We were iffy on Greyhawk.
We said unlikely to the Forgotten Realms (because no Exalted Dieties exist there: no Exalted Deity would allow the Faithless and False to go to Kelemvor's Wall, in our opinion.)
We thought Dark Sun had it's own kind of Exalted: the Preserver and the goal of Preserver Metamorphosis (Avangion Metamorphosis.)

I'm not familiar enough with Eberron or Kalamar to make a call there.

I would say, in all fairness, that no Exalted character of mine would be comfortable with the governments and nations and cultures in FR, Greyhawk, and Krynn. I can explain why, if asked.

I and my friend also agreed that normal Krynnish kender would be unlikely to be Exalted, but afflicted kender might qualify. It's a matter of focus.

We also agreed that the Exalted Template could be applied to organizations of people dedicated to good causes made famous in literature and fiction in general.
Such people in such organizations would not - do not - achieve the purity of Exalted Characters. Their human or humanoid failings cause them to fall short of the requirements for Exalted. But they try hard anyways, and they serve something worth serving, and they are special people.
Such people - along with their mortal failings - might have the Exalted Template, or a variant of it.

For those of you who can stand The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (or enjoy them, like me), the Lords, the Bloodguard, and the Ramen would count as good, neutral, and good examples of these people. Caer-Caveral the Forestal of Andelain would count as a good Exalted.
These peoples aren't perfect. They have mortal failings (they have mortal failings even if they think they are perfect, like the Bloodguard!) They make terrible mistakes.
Yet what they do is noteworthy and lofty enough, it is imaginable to give them a modified form of the Exalted Template (a modified form, since the exact original out of the book doesn't quite fit in the Land.)

What do you'all think?

 

[Saeviomagy]

When I was very new to the game, I was into playing Good characters. This ran contrary to everyone else around me, who were into playing Evil characters.

Gee, do you reckon this might be your problem? Ultimate goodness is simply not going to work in a group who are playing evil characters. And since there are more of them than you, YOU are the one who should be trying to make it work. It sounds like you're trying to be the odd one out, and unsurprisingly, it fails to help the game.

 

[ForceUser]

We thought that Ravenloft would be a great place for Exalted characters.

What do you'all think?

I think that the average life expectancy of an exalted character in Ravenloft is about 0.05 seconds.

Darklord (holding head): Ouch! My head is killing me! What's going on?

Toady: There's a celestial servant of heaven in the realm, sire.

Darklord: Grrr. Excuse me. (he teleports)

Five minutes pass. The darklord teleports back.

Darklord: Whew, okay, I feel much better now! Where's my dinner?

 

[drothgery]

Hmm... my current group has two exalted characters, a Silver Pyromancer (Eberron arcane paladin-esque PrC) wannabe (that's me), and a CG barbarian/fighter. And we're having just as much fun with them as we did with the evil/mercenary group we were running up until last month. Admittedly, this is four sessions in and the first time we've really had an unambigously all-Good (and we're talking capital-G good here) party in the four years I've played with these guys, so I don't know if it'll last...

 

[el-remmen]

What is all this "Exalted" character stuff?

Although I only own the BoVD, I figured the BoED was the same thing - that is, a book with stuff for good people that you can pick and choose to implement in your campaign - just like the BoVD is a book of evil stuff to pick and choose to use in your campaign.

For example Vile damage is awesome! Imagine a PC not knowing what it was and having to figure it out and travel to some concencrated ground to fully healed. . . or some of those disfiguring feats. . . I imagine the BoED stuff is similar - i.e. stuff for the DM to use and maybe slowly make it available to PCs (or not).

As for good characters, nearly every single PC in every one of my games has been good for goodness' sake. . .

 

[Silveras]

We said unlikely to the Forgotten Realms (because no Exalted Dieties exist there: no Exalted Deity would allow the Faithless and False to go to Kelemvor's Wall, in our opinion.)

Champions of Ruin, the FR supplement, can be described as: "A supplement for using the Book of Vile Darkness in the Forgotten Realms, complete with more Vile feats, Corrupted spells, FR-specific Vile Prestige Classes, and more."

Care to guess how its mirror-opposite, Champions of Valor, could be described?

Ilmater is the forgiving, pacifist Exalted deity of the Realms.
Torm and Tyr are among the active, evil-smiting Exalted deities of the Realms.