A very reluctant question: how does one have fun with the Book of Exalted Deeds?

[Silveras]

What is all this "Exalted" character stuff?

Although I only own the BoVD, I figured the BoED was the same thing - that is, a book with stuff for good people that you can pick and choose to implement in your campaign - just like the BoVD is a book of evil stuff to pick and choose to use in your campaign.

For example Vile damage is awesome! Imagine a PC not knowing what it was and having to figure it out and travel to some concencrated ground to fully healed. . . or some of those disfiguring feats. . . I imagine the BoED stuff is similar - i.e. stuff for the DM to use and maybe slowly make it available to PCs.

As for good characters, nearly every single PC in every one of my games has been good for goodness' sake. . .

Thanks for asking; composing the answer helped me crystallize my thoughts.

The Book of Vile Darkness presents options for building extremely Evil characters; tools that reward the user with power while leading down the road to corruption.

The Book of Exalted Deeds presents options for building extremely Good characters; tools that reward the user with power for having already shown the inclination toward Good.

"Exalted" is a status that requires behavioral constraints similar to, and sometimes more stringent than, a Paladin. It is almost like any Exalted character could be a Paladin, but not all Paladins are good enough to he Exalted. The Exalted status can be lost, and regained through atonement.


Personal Note:
In general, I look at Exalted feats as bonus feats for the deities to give out; they are not there for the Player to choose.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Let me clarify myself, Saeviomagy. There is some confusion here.

When I was 10, 11, and 12 years old, everyone I knew who played D&D, liked playing evil characters. At that time, I didn't play the game. I was aware of the game, but did not play it.

When I was 16, 17, and 18, I played actively.
At that time, those around me did not play evil characters as a rule. They played good and neutral characters as a rule.
It was then that I started playing Edena the Cleric as a kind of Exalted character.
It was then that I ran into the hostility I spoke of.

The mistake I made, and that many other players around that time made, was that we did not get together before the game, and say: we wish to play this kind of game, or: we wish to play that kind of game.
Instead, everyone just sorta showed up and played ... and hoped for some fun. And usually, had some fun (including me.)

When I saw that playing Edena as an exalted character was useless, I abandoned playing him that way.
With a few rare exceptions, I have never since run into a group or DM who would have been comfortable with the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Does that clarify things? No, I was not the Odd-Man-Out.

-

To el-remmen

The Book of Exalted Deeds does something I've never seen any D&D book do before: It answers the question of what Good is. It answers this question in crystal clear terms, blunt and forcible terms, in absolute terms.
For example, torture is absolutely evil. Lying is absolutely evil. Hatred and suffering are absolutely evil.
There is no such thing as a Mitigating Circumstance. There is no such thing as a justified evil act, committed for the greater good, that is ultimately a good act. An evil act is an evil act, PERIOD, regardless of whether it saves your life or the lives of everyone on the planet.

If you voluntarily commit an evil act, for any reason whatsoever, you lose Exalted Status, until you sincerely attempt to make restitution for that act.
The powers of Good are willing to forgive and forget, but you must convince them you are sincerely repentant.

If you fire a fireball into a group of orcs, and this group included orc children, you committed an evil act.
If your neutral associate fires a fireball into a group of orcs, and into orc children, you are guilty by association. You must do something about the behavior of your friend ... or leave your friend's company. If you do not, you have committed an evil act.
If the orc surrenders, you must accept that.
After that, you must treat the orc with the highest of decency and kindness.
If you intend to turn the orc over to the authorities, you MUST confirm that THEY will treat said orc with decency and kindness, and attempt to convert him to good alignment.

And it's not just orcs. It's drow, mind flayers, mass murderers, vampires, and even death knights.
If they surrender, you MUST treat them as decently as you would treat a friend. It is unfortunate that they must be held captive, but that is necessary for their own good, until you convert them to good alignment.

And you CAN convert them to good alignment, without spells or torture or even roleplaying. You simply talk to them. (You heard that right: you can convert a death knight to Good by talking to him.) After a while, they must start making DC checks against your Diplomacy. After 7 failed saves in a row, they become neutral. After 7 more, they become good. This is permanent and desired by the redeemed villain.

That is what is meant, when we are talking about an Exalted Character.
An Exalted Character is not just a good character, he is an exalted character. He holds himself to standards and norms that exceed the typical standards of good (as in: most elves are chaotic good, most dwarves are lawful good, most halflings are neutral good, etc.) in the game.

It does not matter how many horrific acts of murder, torture, or depravity the villain has committed. He is still redeemable. His soul can still be saved. He can still earn a place in the Upper Planes. The Powers of Good are willing to accept him, if he repents and mends his ways.

This is how Exalted Characters think and work.

And the Book of Exalted Deeds grants them very great power. Exalted Feats, Exalted Spells, and Exalted PrCs are much more powerful than what is found in the Player's Handbook

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

For example:

Let's say I was playing an Exalted Character in the Dragonlance Setting (the world of Krynn.)
My character runs into Lord Soth the Death Knight (say, because Lord Soth was attacking Palanthus, as in the Dragonlance Legends Trilogy.)

My character chooses to attempt to take Lord Soth prisoner, and succeeds.
Afterwards, my character treats Lord Soth with all the dignity, kindliness, and gentleness a good mother would extend to a child who is loved but had been disobedient.
My exalted character imprisons Lord Soth, but the prison is a pleasant, aethetic place, full of good things, full of visions of joy and beauty and light.

Now, my character attempts to convert Lord Soth to good.
This attempt involves talking only. Nothing else. No threats, no spells, nothing else whatsoever. Just gentle, friendly, enlightening talk.
If my character succeeds, and Lord Soth becomes Lawful Good, then ...

PALADINE forgives Lord Soth.
The Curse of Isolde is broken.
The Curse of Dargaard Keep is broken, for all therein.

Lord Soth reverts, in all likelihood, to a paladin!
Lord Soth remains a champion of good, my friend and ally, and an ally of the Knights of Solamnia and Church of Paladine, thereever after.

By the rules of the Book of Exalted Deeds, this is what happens.

(Ok, everyone can let me have it now. But that's what it says, folks.)

 

[FireLance]

I would say that the most difficult part of playing an Exalted character and using material from the Book of Exalted Deeds is finding the right group.

Some players and DMs don't like the idea of handing out mechanical benefits for being good.
Some players and DMs feel that the Book of Exalted Deeds hands out too many mechanical benefits for being good.
Some players and DMs don't like the idea that its is better to be idealistic than pragmatic.
Some players and DMs disagree with the definitions of good in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
One person's act of good can be another person's act of stupidity.
The Book of Exalted Deeds has rules that can clash with the world views of some players and DMs.
Some players and DMs feel that certain creatures, such as evil outsiders and undead, can never be redeemed.
Some players and DMs feel that redemption should only be achieved through role-playing and not through a spell or by making fourteen skill checks.

I like it, though. It's one of my favourite 3.5e supplements.

 

[Silveras]

For example:

Let's say I was playing an Exalted Character in the Dragonlance Setting (the world of Krynn.)
My character runs into Lord Soth the Death Knight (say, because Lord Soth was attacking Palanthus, as in the Dragonlance Legends Trilogy.)

My character chooses to attempt to take Lord Soth prisoner, and succeeds.
Afterwards, my character treats Lord Soth with all the dignity, kindliness, and gentleness a good mother would extend to a child who is loved but had been disobedient.
My exalted character imprisons Lord Soth, but the prison is a pleasant, aethetic place, full of good things, full of visions of joy and beauty and light.

Now, my character attempts to convert Lord Soth to good.
This attempt involves talking only. Nothing else. No threats, no spells, nothing else whatsoever. Just gentle, friendly, enlightening talk.
If my character succeeds, and Lord Soth becomes Lawful Good, then ...

PALADINE forgives Lord Soth.
The Curse of Isolde is broken.
The Curse of Dargaard Keep is broken, for all therein.

Lord Soth reverts, in all likelihood, to a paladin!
Lord Soth remains a champion of good, my friend and ally, and an ally of the Knights of Solamnia and Church of Paladine, thereever after.

By the rules of the Book of Exalted Deeds, this is what happens.

(Ok, everyone can let me have it now. But that's what it says, folks.)

Yes, it does say that. I think your example is flawed, though, because I would classify Undead in the same group with Outsiders with the Evil subtype : Immune to redemption. [Edit: At least through Diplomacy alone.]


You can also find similar content in Green Ronin's "Avatar's Handbook" (at least some of which I hope to see make it into the Advanced Class Codex for 3.5 revision ) and Monte Cook's "Book of Hallowed Might" (I *really* like the Hallowed Mage prestige class).

 

[Shemeska]

I'll just say this bluntly: 'Exalted' characters as described in the BoED have the collective practicality of a bag of wiffle bats.

I also find the BoED's depiction of ideal and 'Exalted' good to be a bizarre cobbling together of select portions of Arminianism. Of course, since James Wyatt is a former Methodist minister, I suppose this angle in the book is to be expected. I won't argue the theological aspects here of course.

Of course, I'm biased here since in my own games the lifespan of a character that was 'exalted' in the sense of the BoED would have a life expectancy of about two minutes. Evil is EVIL, it is pervasive and it is seductive. And oftentimes, survival is predicated on being willing to sully yourself and make the proverbial deal with the devil in the name of the greater good. Good must be willing to be practical and not situate themselves on a pedestal above a sinful world with sinful creatures to the point that they have no connection to it and forgo any meaningful interaction with it. Evil doesn't have those hangups, and good suffers if it seperates itself from the reality of the world and the way it is and the way it works.

And on top of this, barring the risen Christ sitting at my table munching on cheetos and swigging Mountain Dew, I really don't think that most players have the capacity to portray characters that embody the kind of selfless piety that the BoED attempted to portray (but largely failed to do).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Mind you, I'm not dissing the Book of Exalted Deeds.
I LIKE the book. I think it has great merit, and the potential to increase the fun.

I am expressing my astonishment at the book.
Back in 1E and 2E, they never created books of this type. They just didn't go there, as it were.

Much of what I am finding in 3rd edition is surprising, amazing, or astonishing, as I attempt to convert from my entrenched 2nd edition mindset into a true 3.5 mindset.
I guess it's inevitable.

I'm not dissing the book.
I am reacting strongly to it, in astonishment, wonder, and puzzlement (as to how to make it's concepts fit within the standard campaigns as I know them.)

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Psion]

As related elsewhere:

This is one way how:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=68633

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thank you very much for the link. I read through your article.

My first gut instinct (for good or bad) is to hand out Exalted Feats and spells and PrCs like candy to those who actually meet the criteron for having them.
It is so hard to meet and sustain the needed criteron, that I would reward the player in immense ways for doing it. It is no easy roleplaying situation for him or her.

Concerning Nymph's Kiss, I remember the Elven High Magic spell Nymph's Aura, from FOR5 Elves of Evermeet.
It seems this spell has finally made it into 3.5, as an 8th level druidical exalted spell.

Since sexual bliss and ecstasy are inherently Exalted (that is in the book) I could see an Exalted Hedonist, so I could see ... well, I could see an exalted character and a nymph working together to bring a good solution to a given problem.

 

[FireLance]

I'll just say this bluntly: 'Exalted' characters as described in the BoED have the collective practicality of a bag of wiffle bats.

I also find the BoED's depiction of ideal and 'Exalted' good to be a bizarre cobbling together of select portions of Arminianism. Of course, since James Wyatt is a former Methodist minister, I suppose this angle in the book is to be expected. I won't argue the theological aspects here of course.

Of course, I'm biased here since in my own games the lifespan of a character that was 'exalted' in the sense of the BoED would have a life expectancy of about two minutes. Evil is EVIL, it is pervasive and it is seductive. And oftentimes, survival is predicated on being willing to sully yourself and make the proverbial deal with the devil in the name of the greater good. Good must be willing to be practical and not situate themselves on a pedestal above a sinful world with sinful creatures to the point that they have no connection to it and forgo any meaningful interaction with it. Evil doesn't have those hangups, and good suffers if it seperates itself from the reality of the world and the way it is and the way it works.

And on top of this, barring the risen Christ sitting at my table munching on cheetos and swigging Mountain Dew, I really don't think that most players have the capacity to portray characters that embody the kind of selfless piety that the BoED attempted to portray (but largely failed to do).

I think it's safe to say that Shemeska and I run very different games.

Mind you, I agree with this point:
"Good must be willing to be practical and not situate themselves on a pedestal above a sinful world with sinful creatures to the point that they have no connection to it and forgo any meaningful interaction with it."

But not with this:
"And oftentimes, survival is predicated on being willing to sully yourself and make the proverbial deal with the devil in the name of the greater good."

In my games, evil means can never achieve good ends. Evil's greatest victory lies in making you believe you cannot succeed without using its methods, so that even apparent successes contain within them the seeds of eventual failure and the triumph of evil. At least, in my games . Don't go trying this in Shemeska's .