A very reluctant question: how does one have fun with the Book of Exalted Deeds?

[Evilhalfling]

The best way to use the book? new good outsiders. I have used the musteval (for a gnome gods representative) the Warden Archeron (guarding a dwarven city in Celestia) and the Owl Archeron (running a stables for paladin Steeds).
Only one player has tried an exalted character, a monk/cleric of the god of peace.
The player did not have the BoED - so it did not play out exactly as RAW.
the other players seem to enjoy the moral struggles, some helping, PCs actually becoming more good and others encouraging him to backslide.

His evolution as follows:
1. non exalted monk
2. goes on pilgirmage, his companions must swear to obey his oath while on trip.
"I will not kill humans,elves,dwarves, or any halflings (including gnomes&goblins). I will not kill or allow companions to kill any who have surrendered or any that I have captured, unless they are the legitimate law of the land. I must offer peace before violence to any who can understand."
3. becomes a multiclassed cleric. (exalted)
4. time passes. offers peace to Aboleths, Lizardmen, Derro,goblins & Chromatic Dragons,
- sometimes sucessfully, others not.
5. he knocks out a halfling necromancer that stole and defiled a friends body, they are 3 weeks from any civilization. He allows the mans wife to kill the necromancer cleanly.
-5a. This is a violation, but justifiably ignored by the gods.
6. After brokering a peace between anchient enemies he gains sanctified martial strike as a bonus feat. (to his confusion)
7. After being betrayed several times by a halfling guide, they finally capture him. They are in a moderatly corrupt city, and have little evidance. After much soul searching he allows another PC to kill the guide.
-7A. He looses exalted status, sanctified fists, and clerical powers.
8. He is sent on an attonment quest, where he must kill a dragon ur-priest but redeem the dragons wyrmling offspring.
9. He dies after spending too long talking to the dragon, and giving the dragon a clear advantage in position.
10. His soul is redeemed, (regaining clerical spells) but he decides to forgo a reincarnation.

 

[BSF]

I allow the BoED in my game. I also use the alignment system in BoHM. Many PCs are marginally good, to good. But to maintain Exalted Status, a PC must strive to attain an idealized role of Good.

In my game, a Paladin might allow a cloudkill into a cavern complex of goblins that were known to be attacking the nearby town. The Exalted PC would not allow such a thing. A cloudkill into a goblin army, yes, but into a cavern complex no.

I don't even consider all my 'good' deities to be Exalted. One of them is a trickster god always countering the efforts of the Lord of Deception. The good god is not above making agreements with the intent of exploiting loopholes. An Exalted god would argue that such agreements undermine the efforts of good because they are agreements made in bad faith.

It's a trial effort and I am not sure if it will succeed overall. Most of my players are reluctant to try for exalted status because they are not sure they could really hold to it. And they know I won't hesitate to deny them Exalted powers if they fail in that regard.

 

[Thanee]

So, the problem of the other DMs/players is, that the BoED allows Lord Soth to become good?

(Just as an example, of course.)

i.e. that there are actually rules for being good, instead of allowing a huge grey zone?

Bye
Thanee

 

[FireLance]

So, the problem of the other DMs/players is, that the BoED allows Lord Soth to become good?

(Just as an example, of course.)

i.e. that there are actually rules for being good, instead of allowing a huge grey zone?

Yes, I can see it being a problem for some players and DMs, because it "reduces" redemption to a "mechanical process" in which the character's "statistics" or "bonuses" or "magic items" become more important than "true roleplaying". (Insert rant about 3.5e characters being "mere collections of numbers".)

I have no problem with it, though.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I've had no problems with it's use in the game.

I've used the 'monsters' as patrons for the party.

I've added some redeemed weapons and monsters.

I've used some of the spells.

Players have used some of the feats.

Players have used some of the PrCs.

So far, no problems. Althought that Exalted rogue feat where you do d8 sneak attack dice! Argh!

 

[BSF]

So, the problem of the other DMs/players is, that the BoED allows Lord Soth to become good?

(Just as an example, of course.)

i.e. that there are actually rules for being good, instead of allowing a huge grey zone?

Bye
Thanee

I would say part of the problem is that it quantifies a value statement on what Good really is.

Destroying, without any effort to redeem, Lord Soth isn't _really_ good. It is just good intentioned. Or perhaps it is 'Good Light', with half the moral responsibility of 'Exalted Good'.

Because it places a value judgement on what Good really means, and further encourages people to RP out this value judgement, there is a lot of possibility for bad feeling among players. To really be successful with such a game, communication is important, as is knowing the group you are playing in. This is, in fact, one of the primary problems that comes up with the Paladin's Code. The DM & Player do not establish ahead of time what the moral responsibility is for a Paladin. The Player may look at it as a holier-than-thou righteous warrior that can do no wrong so long as he avoids giving in to temptation. The DM may envision an abstract value of goodness embodied through a Paladin. One where retribution in the name of 'justice' isn't 'good' enough. Because the truly 'good' paladin can turn the other cheek and redeem a villian. Then when the player cackles with glee and smites the wrongdoer after having just disarmed the villian, the DM cries foul and starts trying to revoke powers. Because, you know that a real paladin wouldn't kill a helpless adversary. Then sooner or later we end up with a thread on EN World about the paladin's code and the inclination of DMs to screw over paladins.

It is my firm belief that this codifying of 'Good' and placing a value judgement on it is why the book is marked as 'Mature'. Not because there is anything that could corrupt the youth, but because it takes a mature group of players to handle these discussions up front and enjoy playing around with value based 'good' rather than smash in the door and let the good guys kill the bad guys in righteous indignation for bad deeds.

 

[Endur]

I like the BOED.

I suspect that Edena's problems also fell into the ROLE-playing vs. role-PLAYING camp, that is Edena wanted to role-play an exalted character, whereas the other players wanted to roll dice and squash monsters.

I do think it is harder to find "fun" in the BOED than some other books by its very nature.

 

[werk]

I largely use BoED as reference material for planar adventures and NPCs. Same with BoVD.

A character may pick up a feat, or spell, or item from these books, but they are just gravy, I don't have any players with a PrC from them.

When's the neutral book coming out? That's the one I see getting used by my players constantly (if it's any good at all).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It seems to me that you need an exalted deity, if your character is going to be exalted.
Most good deities as portrayed are not exalted, ala within the exact framework of exalted as depicted in the BOED.

As an example, look at the FR setting. There are good deities there, but they allow the false and the faithless to go to Kelemvor's Wall. They do not intervene. There is a lack of mercy there.
That's fine, but in my opinion an exalted deity would intervene, for a number of reasons.
Thus, if I ever ran an FR campaign, and I allowed exalted characters, I'd create exalted deities, and then the faithless and the false would not go to Kelemvor's wall (at least, not very often ...) A modification of the setting.

In Dragonlance, an exalted character could worship Paladine. If so, Paladine had no part in the Cataclysm, or did everything he could to stop the Cataclysm, or the Cataclysm was not at all what historians think it was, one of these choices.
Paladine, as an exalted deity, would never partake in such an event.

If exalted characters are held to a high standard, exacted deities and their minions are held to those standards in extremis, since they are the shining example guiding exalted characters in the first place. There are no exceptions or mitigating circumstances to this rule.
If I don't hold to that maxim, I can't make the exalted concept work. What's good for mortals must be better yet for their deities.

Just an opinion.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Umbran]

What's good for mortals must be better yet for their deities.

I'm not convinced that this is always true, for all games. The deities will generally have a much larger perspective than any PC will. Things that seem unmerciful to mortal eyes may be quite merciful from that larger perspective.

It is that whole "knowing the mind of gods" thing - Are the actions of the deities really understandable to mortal minions? If the gods have minds and knowledge only akin to that of mortals, then they have ot be held to the same standard. If, however, the gods understand creation on a qualitatively and qantitatively greater level than mortals, then mortal measures need not apply.