A wild idea for killing a campaign boss

[anest1s]

I read the link for Shrink Item and it specifically says "Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster" I imagine that means they have to be handled very carefully, touching the dragons mouth would mean they all expand at once before you want them too

and I never said anything about their being breathable air inside a dragons stomach, but the lack of air is no reason to disallow teleporting, if a Wizard want to use most of his spells per day in an attempt to kill one large Dragon then there is little that can be said, except that a Large Dragon isn't very Large and only a creature with Swallow Whole can swallow "any creature smaller than itself" (I think that's a quote I haven't got the MM to look it up)

but as stated above for a one time event I would rule it OK, if it became a regular thing I would have to wait until the player prepared those spells and eliminate any Large creature in the quest, until the player stopped (hey it's mean but it works, sometimes the DM has to be mean to teach players to play smart, knowing my players they would cast Enlarge Monster on a Medium monster )

1. I don't think touching counts as tossing
2. The reason to disallow teleporting isn't that there isn't breathable air, its that there isn't empty space to do so. Its like trying to teleport inside a wall.

 

[Greenfield]

Agreed, touching isn't an issue. You have to explicitly "toss" them onto a solid surface. Otherwise the inside of your pouch would qualify and you wouldn't be able to store them.

And I'm sorry that I didn't make my "breathable air" comments clear. Yes, the question is whether or not there's any unoccupied space.

The rules are very clear about teleporting in where there's a solid object. I've heard debate about teleporting into an area occupied by water/fluid, but the rules don't actually address it so I guess it's allowed. DM call, to be safe.

The reason you need to be swallowed to use the Folding Boat/Shrink Item maneuver is because the items open up on a command word, and I don't know many DM's who would allow a command word spoken outside the Dragon to operate item or items inside of one. While inanimate objects don't get a "Listen" check, per se, there is some argument involving "Line of Effect" (or pick the technical objection of your choice). In any case, I doubt a DM would allow it to work.

I don't know what level your character is, or what your caster level is, but I'm trying to "think small". in terms of budget and power requirements.

 

[Omegaxicor]

1. I don't think touching counts as tossing
2. The reason to disallow teleporting isn't that there isn't breathable air, its that there isn't empty space to do so. Its like trying to teleport inside a wall.

I misunderstood your post I thought you meant toss it into the dragon's mouth and speak the command word to have it open in the stomach (which I agree probably wouldn't work but would deserve a dice roll to find out)

And yes I meant that the stomach isn't perfectly flat and expands only to fill what we eat it is the same shape and size, just filled with air (I assume the air idrk) and acid so teleporting into an enclosed bowl of acid soup is acceptable to me

 

[Greenfield]

I'm trying to think of a creature, any creature, whose stomach doesn't shift and expand around its food, and I honestly can't come up with a single one.

In the cartoons, big creatures have big, empty stomachs that are half full, conveniently, of air. Doesn't happen in real life.

But since the game is a game, and neither "real life" nor a cartoon, it's up to your DM to decide is one falls. Still, I'd have a plan "B" in place in case the DM is less Hanna-Barbera than you think.

 

[Omegaxicor]

seriously? every textbook I have ever read says the stomach isn't perfectly flat (I assumed it was full of air)

EDIT: wow wikipedia agrees with you... OK then I guess teleporting is only an option if the Dragon has fed recently (not too recently)

 

[Greenfield]

Only if he's eaten a balloon recently. Otherwise the stomach may be expanded enough to hold a person, but only because it has a person-sized portion taking up that space.

Swallow Whole (Ex): If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

So, per the rules, once inside you're considered grappled. You aren't in a convenient closet with air and light and room to move. Pretty much every critter with this ability does a certain amount of bludgeoning damage per round to anything inside, to represent the constant crushing effects of being inside an organ that's trying to break you into digestible sized pieces. It's a tight fit, and I personally don't see any way to teleport in.

Still, some DM's like Chuck Jones and Hanna-Barbera themes in their games, some like "real life". And the "Cool" factor will definitely play into the DM's decision on how cartoonish they want this to play out.

<Edit> Second thoughts: Because the rules leave a hole for teleporting into an area occupied by a liquid, it might be possible to 'port into the stomach of something that's just consumed a lot of water. Wouldn't bet the farm on it though.

 

[Omegaxicor]

We concluded the whole " dark, acid damage, no air" side of the idea, comments on that add nothing

I never said the Dragon needed to have eaten the friend recently, the Dragon might have eaten enough to have created a big enough "soup", and if you teleported into it the Dragon's stomach would expand further as more "food" was added wouldn't it?

We agree from post 1, I think, that the experience wouldn't be pleasant for anyone nor easy to accomplish but with the right spells and...fortitude...it could be accomplished

 

[anest1s]

We concluded the whole " dark, acid damage, no air" side of the idea, comments on that add nothing

I never said the Dragon needed to have eaten the friend recently, the Dragon might have eaten enough to have created a big enough "soup", and if you teleported into it the Dragon's stomach would expand further as more "food" was added wouldn't it?

We agree from post 1, I think, that the experience wouldn't be pleasant for anyone nor easy to accomplish but with the right spells and...fortitude...it could be accomplished

Seriously, if a player did that I would let him die. I mean I would have the dragon hit himself to deal damage to the PC inside (dragon would take normal damage, PC half), I would deal acid damage each turn, I would have the player roll balance each round, and to cast anything you would need concentration. Also the dragon would probably heal himself every next round, if he could (or he would fly towards its lair, to get to its healing wand - and killing it on air would also hurt).

Why? Because it is a plan that relies on the fact that the DM doesn't want to kill you. The difficulty of an encounter shouldn't go down, unless the players think something smart. If they want to try something not smart, it won't get any easier.

// but I wouldn't let them teleport in there anyway.

EDIT: On second thought, its average breath weapon damage divided in 2 (the average time it takes to use the breath weapon again). Non lethal damage if the dragon has enough hp to afford hitting himself. Balance to make it look difficult (you can attack while down anyway). And in 7 turns a dragon with 200 ft speed can be 1 mile away...so 3d4 rounds until he is in his lair looks fair.

OR: I let the PC kill the dragon easily, but he finds himself in the dragons lair, where a younger dragon of a CR he should be able to kill alone (but at the same difficulty it would take for a 4 person party to beat the large dragon) attacks him, for killing his father/mother. (Of course the other parent will come after the party later )

 

[Omegaxicor]

1) How would the Dragon heal himself? (I don't remember any Dragon with healing magic)

2) Why would the Dragon hit himself, that is just stupid

3) The acid damage, balance and concentration I agree with 100%, the killing him in the air is only bad if you can't teleport out...or Fly and cut your way out

4) I would say that "smart" has many definitions and I would say that you say it isn't because it is a waste of spells/abilities (2x teleport, Protection from Energy (Acid), something to boost Balance checks (maybe swim checks as well if you are being mean) and something to kill the Dragon with) but if the player can waste those abilities then there is nothing wrong with doing so

EDIT: 5) I am curious what you think about this, each time a Dragon uses his breath weapon, lets say Fire or Electric does it's anatomy become very hot/charged, after all it is immune to it's own element, it would add a new element to this manoeuvre in another type of Dragon

 

[kitcik]

Seriously, if a player did that I would let him die. I mean I would have the dragon hit himself to deal damage to the PC inside (dragon would take normal damage, PC half), I would deal acid damage each turn, I would have the player roll balance each round, and to cast anything you would need concentration. Also the dragon would probably heal himself every next round, if he could (or he would fly towards its lair, to get to its healing wand - and killing it on air would also hurt).

Why? Because it is a plan that relies on the fact that the DM doesn't want to kill you. The difficulty of an encounter shouldn't go down, unless the players think something smart. If they want to try something not smart, it won't get any easier.

// but I wouldn't let them teleport in there anyway.

If fire breath does X damage, the furnace (or other source, depending on energy type) must do, what, 20X? One burp and you're toast.