A wild idea for killing a campaign boss

[Greenfield]

Every gamer I know has schemed a "monster killer" plan of some sort. In first ed. the favorite was the 10 foot block of stone reduced to bowling ball size and flung or dropped into the anti-magic field. (Tensor's Disk didn't have a maximum movement rate then, it just followed behind the caster no matter how fast he was going.)

In 2nd Ed the killer trick was throwing a gallon of oil in a cask or jug, as a jumbo Molotov cocktail. 16 D6 the first round, 8 more the second. Add Affect Normal Fires to either round's efforts and you get 32 dice of damage. Not a lot that could stand up to that. (Even Red Dragons weren't immune to fire back then, they just got a better Save). And it only cost 8 gp per shot.

Every DM I know has had to decide how much Dispel BS he/she is going to cast on these plans. Do they argue physics, dredge up obscure rules, appeal to common sense, or just say "No"? Or, worse yet, do they say "Yes"? Because once you let that sort of thing work, you know that players will try the same ploy again.

So to the OP, consider this from the DM's point of view: Having your character carry a grudge against the campaign boss is good story, it creates plot hooks all over the place. But he may need that campaign boss to, well, be a campaign boss. Letting you nerf him may well force a rewrite of the campaign that the DM just isn't wanting to do.

So let "insane schemer" become a personality quirk for your Owl-girl and run with it. Leave the "suicidally insane schemer" role for someone else.

 

[anest1s]

1) How would the Dragon heal himself? (I don't remember any Dragon with healing magic)

They are intelligent...if a fighter can heal himself, a dragon can too.

2) Why would the Dragon hit himself, that is just stupid

Imagine that a worm is in your belly, eating its way out. I don't know about you, I would hit myself hard.

3) The acid damage, balance and concentration I agree with 100%, the killing him in the air is only bad if you can't teleport out...or Fly and cut your way out

If you can cast fly inside yes. If you see it coming and cast fly before you get in yes. You won't have time to teleport...once you give the final strike, its not your turn any more.

4) I would say that "smart" has many definitions and I would say that you say it isn't because it is a waste of spells/abilities (2x teleport, Protection from Energy (Acid), something to boost Balance checks (maybe swim checks as well if you are being mean) and something to kill the Dragon with) but if the player can waste those abilities then there is nothing wrong with doing so

Smart is something that risk<profit for me Really nothing wrong...but wasting resources isn't something that should be rewarded either.

EDIT: 5) I am curious what you think about this, each time a Dragon uses his breath weapon, lets say Fire or Electric does it's anatomy become very hot/charged, after all it is immune to it's own element, it would add a new element to this manoeuvre in another type of Dragon

Well I don't know about the other element...you mean that after a red dragon uses its flame breath it gets cold in the inside? It could work this way, or it could be hotter too. Or it could be hotter when he doesn't use its breath weapon. I don't think there ae rules for this

Edit: Also, I can't exp Greenfield but I would if I could.

 

[Greenfield]

1) How would the Dragon heal himself? (I don't remember any Dragon with healing magic)

Well, several Dragons specifically list the ability to cast Cleric spells as Arcane, and are granted one or more Clerical Domains to choose spells from. Look in the footnotes on the Copper dragon, for example.

In fact, most Dragons that can cast spells include a similar footnote. But, to point of this discussion, Black Dragons (the type being discussed by the OP) are notably missing that feature.

So yeah, the Dragon will have to use an item of some sort for fast healing.

Odd thought: The notes on Swallow Whole say that a swallowed person is considered Grappled, and that they can attempt to break that grapple and climb back out. Can the swallowing creature intentionally fail that grapple check, and effectively regurgitate a swallowed creature? And would that apply in a case like this, where the Dragon doesn't actually have the Swallow Whole ability but has somehow managed to end up with someone swallowed?

 

[anest1s]

Odd thought: The notes on Swallow Whole say that a swallowed person is considered Grappled, and that they can attempt to break that grapple and climb back out. Can the swallowing creature intentionally fail that grapple check, and effectively regurgitate a swallowed creature? And would that apply in a case like this, where the Dragon doesn't actually have the Swallow Whole ability but has somehow managed to end up with someone swallowed?

Well, if he can't swallow whole...he can't un-swallow whole either, if the creature he ate is too big. Also if he could, he would still need to win a grapple check, if the creature inside wanted to stay. I mean why wouldn't the creature inside fail its grapple check on purpose too?

 

[scott2978]

Hey guys thanks for all the great feedback.

IF I were to approach this from a tactical, rulesy perspective, here's what I'd say:

I've decided that the idea has the following problems:
Can't teleport inside another creature.
Can't cast spells while swallowed due to verbal, somatic and material components.
Can't summon creatures into another creature.
Can't breathe inside a dragon.

I've also identified some other minor issues:
Dragon acid stomach
Dragon healing

The dragon healing itself really isn't an issue, as it can only heal itself for so long before it runs out of spells/potions/wands. Besides it's an evil dragon! How much healing magic can he keep around before it just seems paranoid!

The acid inside the dragon (it's a black dragon) isn't a problem because I can cast resist and protect before going in.

I can get around teleporting by being swallowed as said fish.

I can get around casting spells (and summoning issuea) by using weapons instead of spells.

So I buff up, transform into a fish, get swallowed, dismiss the transformation (which is a standard action that does not require a concentration check or any components), and start attacking. According to rules, when you are swallowed, natural armor of the swallower does not apply to attacks from within. That makes a dragon incredibly easy to hit from the inside. Also a dragon of this age has little, if any DR. Since I'm a druid, I Wild Shape while inside the dragon into a form that is at least one size smaller than the dragon (ie: medium) and has a lot of natural attacks. Like a cat, or a dinosaur - or a crocodile, that can hold it's breath twice as long as normal. Since you can only use light weapons while grappled, this is perfect because all natural weapons are considered light weapons. I figure it won't take long hacking and slashing from within before my dragon problem will go away.

If I was to approach it from a more "fun" oriented way, I'd just do it the way I described before, but with the caveat that this is a one-time deal just for fun and totally up to the DM discretion, though a new and totally different crazy cool idea in the future might work if the DM clears it.

In the end what I decided was that to get the most out of this I needed the DM to buy into it, sort of making him a part of the idea and working it into the story with his help. I've talked to him about it and the session will happen tomorrow. I'm usually the DM of the group, so I understand the whole thing about making a habit of doing silly stunts. My first suggestion was that if he wanted a climactic battle, then perhaps after the dragon is dead, the dragon's master appears to settle the score. Or maybe the dragon's minions attack, attempting greater glory as the slayer of the slayer, or to get the dragon's hoard from the PC's. We'll see how it plays out and I'll post the results here.

Thanks again for the constructive feedback.

Scott

 

[Omegaxicor]

I think there would still be an issue with the dragon not chewing his food ("you") before swallowing, least of all because Black Dragons prefer to leave their food to rot before swallowing (or something similar from the Dragonomicon) and you might still need to take a Swim or Balance check or get crushed/shaken about in the stomach

 

[anest1s]

The dragon healing itself really isn't an issue, as it can only heal itself for so long before it runs out of spells/potions/wands. Besides it's an evil dragon! How much healing magic can he keep around before it just seems paranoid!

Well, think that after a fight the dragon will have to heal himself. If I had 100+ hp I would have a way to heal myself too. Maybe the dragon doesn't, but I don't know if that makes sense.

I can get around teleporting by being swallowed as said fish.

At level 11 druid you can become a tiny fish... but tiny means 1-2ft long

So I buff up, transform into a fish, get swallowed, dismiss the transformation (which is a standard action that does not require a concentration check or any components), and start attacking.

I wonder, can you grow your size if there is no space?

Anyway, if you are a druid why don't you just beat the dragon the normal way?

Edit: what race+ level you are?

 

[scott2978]

Because it's not as fun!

Who tells the story of the time they beat the "X" in normal combat?

The stories told round the table for years are the ones born of great ingenuity, great luck, or great desperation. I'd not really consider doing something like this all the time, it'd get old fast, but as a one-off idea for a climactic battle (especially if the DM decides to turn this into a sideshow and makes the real battle something else) this seems pretty awesome.

Thanks for contributing!

Scott

EDIT: I'm a small, anthropomorphic owl druid 4/wizard 3/ arcane heirophant 1.

 

[Rabulias]

There are indeed fire breathing creatures on Earth. They have a gland that secretes a flammable liquid, which ignites as it is sprayed from their mouth by striking a very rough area on the top of their mouth with their tongues to create a small spark.
Interesting stuff, bro.

Without citation/reference on this, I call no way.

 

[Sekhmet]

Bombardier Beetles spring to mind, though that is only super heated and not flame, though the mechanic is identical to my description.
Several Discovery documentaries have theorized on how a dragon would have been physiologically made up were they real, and they use the same glandular secretion of volatile chemicals as the bombardier beetles.