A world with no roads, no doors, and no boats

Ok, ok, I'll throw my hat in.

The kind of defences you are describing could only be implemented at 'the capitol' or other central cities. The Empire is still dependent on 'the outside' for basic necessities to some extent. Granted, it doesn't take many Decanters of Endless Water to provide all the water a city is going to need (and then some), but there is only so far, Create Food & Water, Heroes Feast, Mordankainen's Magnificent Mansions and the like will go to feed a thriving metropolis. And besides, what wealthy Empire is going to be happy not recieving the tribute and wealth of the world through its doors.

So lets say we have these satellite city states of oh, 40,000 people - the minimum needed to occasional (every few centuries) produce a Wizard with the talent and desire to start up a link to the next city. They are surrounded by a rather large agarian community of say, 200,000+ that is producing the wood, food, cloth, leather, raw iron, gems, gold, and other commodities that are consumed by each city. But once the commodities are brought to the city, it is easy for the city dwellers to transport them to any of several other cities in the trade loop.

At each cities heart is vast trading station where access to the portals is controlled. Commodities stack up in the trading station, are bought and sold, and then teams of porters (some slaves, some freemen, maybe even some cities have politically powerful porter guilds), pick up bundles of whatever is sold and walk through the 'out' portal, pick up something on the other side and walk through the linking portal back to their home city in an endless chain.

Probably one porter can carry 80-100 lbs. per trip, and can (with experience) clear a portal for the next bearer in under 3 seconds, so each portal can transport operating around the clock approxiamately 144 tons of raw material. An average city in the Empire probably has 3 or 4 such portals - with the equivalent transportive capacity of a fleet of 30 or so Semi's even assuming something more efficient cannot be arranged.

Horses, Oxen, Mules, and what not could perhaps be trained to carry things through the portal, but I imagine that they would cause as many problems as they would solve in a crowded noisy magical environment, so mostly the cities would rely on humanoid labor (at least I perfer that YMMV). Hill Giants would be probably in high demand as porters, stevedores, teamsters, whatever you want to call this job (no direct real world analogy), as they would definately increase transportive capacity immensely.

These satellite cities would look pretty normal except for thier connection to the secret cities at the heart of the Empire.

As you get further into the Empire, things could get as bizarre as you are suggesting. At its heart in the middle of the Empire, you really could have a City Without Doors where noone in the city knows where the city is, and everyone travels about the city via teep circles, phasedoors, and other magical gates. Average city dwellers might not even be sure where one building in the city was relative to another. (I think of the family with the power to open teleport gates in Neverwhere). Probably such a city would only evolve if everyone didn't trust everyone else, so this implies that the ruling heirarchy is a bunch of might Wizardly families who engage in widespread assassination for political purposes, or that there is great fear of slave revolt, or both. The other possiblity is the whole defensive scheme developed in responce to some nightmarishly powerful all consuming evil that the average citizen of the Empire has long forgotten existed. Then again, both things could be true.

Maybe at the top of the Empire its not even the same race controlling it as what lives in it.

Who knows? And even if there wasn't anything unusual about the City without Doors, wouldn't everyone in the Empire be constantly speculating about it just because it makes for such great rumors?

BTW, city walls in themselves, even ones without doors in them, don't make much of an obstacle in a high magic campaign. To many things can just fly right over them, teleport right through them, smash them, etc. So, having a hole in the wall isn't that big of deal. If you really want security, you build like the Dwarves do... and keep your ears to the wall to make sure nothing is tunneling in.
 

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On the matter of food production.

The question came, "How does food get into the city?"

THe answer came back, "They go through the portals as well."

Does that mean that every tiny village has its own portal??

A city of 100,000 people will have a million or more people supporting it, in THOUSANDS of little villages. Does each of those villages have a teleport circle?

I don't think so. If the city has the kind of money required to build THOUSANDS of teleport circles, then they're going to spend it on more useful things than letting farmer Brown and his three brothers bring their hogs to marked once a year.

No, you will ALWAYS have roads.
 

Vaxalon said:
On the matter of food production.

The question came, "How does food get into the city?"

THe answer came back, "They go through the portals as well."

Does that mean that every tiny village has its own portal??

A city of 100,000 people will have a million or more people supporting it, in THOUSANDS of little villages. Does each of those villages have a teleport circle?

I don't think so. If the city has the kind of money required to build THOUSANDS of teleport circles, then they're going to spend it on more useful things than letting farmer Brown and his three brothers bring their hogs to marked once a year.

No, you will ALWAYS have roads.

I remember this being an intense debate on the Planescape ML when I used to post there. Sigil, in Planescape is essentially that : a city that is huge, not self sufficient and a huge commerce metropolis of the planes. In one of the major PS adventures, the portals are closed for a few days, and it's utter panic.

I think it could be made believable in a fantasy setting provided (obviously) that not all cities are like that. I could see a network of highly specialised cities that only produce the minimum to be able to exchange / purchase what they need from other cities. But if the network goes down... Bam !
 

It occurred to me tonight -- while watching an old episode of Stargate: SG1 -- that there is another way to look at the Teleport Circle issue.

If you have a truly far-flung network -- say, across worlds -- then you end up with the formula for a very episodic adventure game. While it might be easier to model with something like Planescape, a universe where all worlds follow the same rules and have the same basic physical/magical laws does make some sense.

Then you have the essential Stargate conundrum -- how much access is too much? Do you allow free use of the gate for those that wish to transmit? No. Then enemies can use the system. But if you restrict it too much, then you don't get any benefit.

Maybe it's just me, but I think a game based around the idea of Teleport Circle as a relic network -- Stargate style, but with magic -- would be a lot of fun.
 


Re: Cf. "Master of Orion II".

JERandall said:
So this is how I imagine a world full of Teleport Circles. Everyone is armed to the teeth with magic. Minor raids through a Circle might happen, but full-on invasions would be extremely rare because of the risk of catastrophe if the invasion bogs down. Only a simultaneous attack through multiple Circles at once would have a chance to work (and by work I mean achieve a long-term conquest).

All this is wicked, absolutely bad-ass wicked. :)
 

B. A. Topic

I have one minor application for Teep Circles that might help out the traffic problem. And create some neat power tactics

The portals run one way, and, unless I don't know something, you could put the terminus of one facing down on cieling.

Then you can just dump something relatively fluid but necessary, like water, grain, pieces of gold, coal, or charcoal directly into a storage space from wherever it was manufactured.

The nasty application of this is to have all of your decanters of endless water for your empire in one location. You could set up fairly regulated water pressure through this system and if a city is in revolt you could either destroy it by pumping something nasty through its water supply system or discourage it by cutting the water supply off.

You could apply the prinicpals of hydraulic dictatorship on a truly massive level.

Hell, you could not only keep the location of the central water city private, you could surround the whole water thing with secrecy using those clever dwarf masons to disguise it as magic springs.

Which you would be anyways, but the pcs like it better when everything is an enigma wrapped in a riddle wrapped in bacon.

BTW: someone said something about Columbus's big concern being censure from the Pope for ruining cosmology.

Well, Popes can believe a lot of wacky things, but the one big debate Columbus had with church authorities wasn't the shape of the world, it was its size.

Church authorities were very clear about the shape of the world and you don't need to take my word for it: Read Dante's Divine Comedy or take a look at the big round worldy thing Christ is sitting on in the mosaics at Ravenna.

The Greeks had calculated the size of the Earth some millenia earlier and Medieval/Renaissance scholars had confirmed the numbers. They just didn't know that the Atlantic doesn't stretch all the way to Japan. There's these two things called North and South America in the way.

A group of monks in Spain had exactly this knowledge and told Columbus he was going on a fools voyage, because he was both taking the long route and dooming his men to a voyage the monks were pretty sure their sailing ships and supplies couldn't get them through.

Columbus had a very poor interpretation of Marco Polo and a slightly poorer knowledge of astronomy with which he defended himself. He did not win the debate.

Some people say he knew the Viking sagas or stories from Basque fishermen which made him more certain, but he didn't mention them at the time.

Regardless, he got the funding and the blind luck of plate tectonics worked in his favor.

And so monks who were willing to rely on science lost a lot of face. Primarily due to people, such as the poet Washington Irving, who were unwilling to believe in an educated Catholic.

This history lesson brought to you by: Insomnia, the drink what makes you read/write/speak about medieval/renaissance history and not know when to stop.
 

Tactics and the Horde

Spending all this time fighting in and around enclosed teep circles would leave you with very little knowledge of open warfare and mass tactics.

The Mongol Horde would show up and you'd be even more screwed than you already are when the Monglol Horde shows up.

Um, that is, the Mongol Horde would have like mad crazy numbers of 17th level magic users what with all the ones who didn't want to make teep circles going out to live on the steppes...

Aw screw.
 

Isn't it amazing what just a little bit of imagination can do once enough interesting people get together?

I've gotten more inspiration for major plot twists and fantastic campaign breakers from this one thread than I have from entire $20 d20 products.

No wonder I like this site so much... ;)


Oh, and here's an interesting idea in return - if all of this is extrapolated from just the teleportation circle as it currently exists, imagine the possibilities when various nations and mage traditions start trying to research variations on the spell to give them advantages over their political rivals....
 

Vaxalon said:
On the matter of food production.

[snip]

Does each of those villages have a teleport circle?

I don't think so. If the city has the kind of money required to build THOUSANDS of teleport circles, then they're going to spend it on more useful things than letting farmer Brown and his three brothers bring their hogs to marked once a year.

No, you will ALWAYS have roads.

I think you will always have some roads. But if teleportation is cheap or free, only from the small hamlets to the somewhat larger villages.

The effect of transport costs on the availability and cost of foodstuffs and other raw materials is incredible. In a system with very low transit time and zero cost in graft, theft, brigandry and intermediate taxes, it would take very little time to make a teleportal in each medium sized village well worth the initial capital expenditure.

Assuming a relatively capitalistic model, these low transport costs would quickly spread to even the lowest classes in the city and the cost of food (for example) would be based only on how limited a resource was at it's source. So while the commoners probably wouldn't be eating lobster every night, they could certainly afford to eat something more exotic than gruel if they chose.

(My mind keeps jumping to the next logical step. Forgive my stream of consciousness.)

The teleportals would also encourage the mass production of food. In a typical D&D hamlet, you won't find a farm with 10,000 chickens on it because the local populace couldn't possibly eat that many chickens and they would be difficult to transport to a larger market en masse. No longer. And growing enough grain locally to feed those chickens is also not a problem. Somewhere out there is a gigantic corn farm and the chicken farm can import the grain through the same portal they use to export the chickens.

Expect there to be mass production of any kind of foodstuff that can be grown in that manner.
 

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