A world with no roads, no doors, and no boats

Meanwhile on the Platonic Plane

Somewhere, out there, is a teleporter commando prestige class.

And that prestige class wants to be on this thread.

Wants it so badly it can taste it.

BTW: this thread is begining to scare me. I see some of these posts, including my own, and I know that the long slide to Rifts has already begun.

Frank Herbert would have written fantasy if he had access to this message board.
 

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Utrecht - I would have to completely disagree with you on the stagnation issue. I think the complete opposite would be the case. As more and more cites connect to the network, and as the spread of ideas increased in speed and regularity, this society would be extremely dynamic. The common man who could afford the tolls would have the culture and knowledge of 1000 cities at his fingertips, all of them only a few hops away. Christopher Columbus would never have had to make the voyage he made because he could just take a teleportal straight to Technochitilan or Shanghai.

Of course, stragnation could be deliberately brought about by the powers that be by using their power to limit people's thoughts and actions, by supporting conservative "head in the sand, I am afraid of change" people against people who want to make a difference. See Raymound E. Feists' Empire Trilogy for a good example of that. And a damn good series too.

On getting food into the cities
- I meant that the city could use the Teleportal as a front gate. Imagine this. The city sits on top of Devil's Tower. At the bottom of the Tower is a teleportal that takes you to the top. Foodstuffs and other raw supplies from the nearby village come over normally (your average floating barge will do, so that a few beasts of burden can pull the same amount of food as a river barge) but then use the teleportal to get to the top.

Of course, having a teleportal in nearby "large" villages would be useful too. As a rule of thumb, anywhere that deserves a UPS or FedEx depot warrants a Teleportal :).

From a tactical point of view, being on top of the tower protects you from land forces. Wands of fireball artillery protect you from flyers, and a city-wide ward that shunts Teleporters into the Underdark would protect you from that. Of course, if the Teleportal Commandos ever found a way through the Ward, you would be facing immenent attack from any point in the defense network. Your internal defense would have to have quick response capabilities anywhere within the realm in a matter of minutes. Any type of divinations that could even give you a minute or two of warning would be extremely useful. I think that the best strategy would to be to have Seers (amplified to detect danger around the entire city) on at all times, but to also have all citizens well armed and trained, like the Swiss militia. Armed to the teeth, never at war.

Think of the teleportal commandos as Navy Seals with the ultimate stealth, faster than light insertion choppers. There would not be enough of them to take over a city (for that you would need thousands of Dragon-back Marines dropping out of the sky with Wands of Feather Fall), but they could read off a Mordenkainen's Disjunction scroll onto the defenders defense grid, or onto the teleportal that leads to the citie's reserve soldiers. As others have mentioned, supreme mobility is the greatest strength of the teleportal network. You would need to take out that mobility to really cripple them.

Hey, who wants a little crystal sphere with a Delayed Blast Fireball trapped inside? How about a couple of them to distract the enemy while you Feather Fall in? ...

And Frank Herbert did write fantasy. You think the Bene Gesserit, and the One Who Was Many were sci-fi? Weird ...

Mongol Hordes wouldn't stand a chance against this society. Mongols were so dangerous because they were mobile and could attack from many directions at once. Teep networks are this x1000. Just Teep in 1000 archers on all sides of the horde, with rows of pike to keep them at arms length. And don't forget to fly overhead and drop Bags of Holding full of caltrops for their horses to step on. That should take care of that ....

Dr. Strangemonkey, I like your idea of Hydraulic Dictatorship. "He who controls the flow of spice, controls the galaxy" - Frank herbert. Say, here's another idea. Put an "out" teleportal facing down over an enemies fortress. Put the "in" teleportal facing up on the floor of the ocean. Anyone want to figure out how much water could be forced through a 10' radius circle for the duration of the spell, powered by several hundred atmospheres of barometric pressure? Kind'a like a real-life-firehose sprayed at Lego's Castle I imagine ...
 
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mmm, Mongolia

Well, the Mongols were dangerous for a lot of reasons, but I did just realize that you create the circle and then designate the out. So one high level wizard with a lot of amber, a well organized floor space, hefty scrying magic, and a good army would indeed have the vast advantage of supreme mobility.

Two other thoughts: with this new to me knowledge comes the idea that a possible means of defense is to unfamiliarize the caster with the territory. Throw down a lot of new scenery and keep the srcys out and you can keep someone from teleporting into a place with which he is not 'now' familiar. Or even throw up a lot of illusions and let the scrys in.

Not a full defense by any means but a very rudimentary type of the information warfare that might be your most effective defense. Or an area for rules clarification, depending on your point of view.

A side note of this sort of defense is that porter commandos would also be important to information gathering as well as swift demolition. Mmmm, a skill for artillery sighting, more or less.

Other thought: there is no vertical limit on the volume that may be teleported. A kingdom that was really invested in this technology could create tall, well balanced canisters with something like Tenser's Disk holding them up. Then you can ship volumes very efficiently. Much like our own canister systems for shipping, trains, and trucks.

Your ocean idea is well. I wish I knew an emoticon for clapping.

Somewhere in the near future, a bunch of my pcs are in for some sleepless nights.
 

While the idea is good, I just don't see it working.

There would be too many 'interest' that would find portals a danger to their business, ship builders, teamster, other governments, oil companies. Those that would have the most to loose would keep them from being built or at least limit there use, say a law thay says there can only be one portal within 500 miles of another.

Note for the busy citys, for every portal, you would really have to have two. One for going, one for coming, just because of the sheer traffic.
 

One way portals.

I like the idea of one way portals better than two way portals. Let's say most cities only have a portal that goes in one direction: towards the "center" of the empire. (Even though that "center" may really be somewhere else.) Thus the outlying cities can always ship goods and tribute to the capitol, but if they want to send something to another normal city they have to either (1) use normal means of transportation or (2) ship it via the capitol.

Conversely the capitol has two way portals so that the king can send his representatives to all his far-flung cities. Remember, they can return to the capitol through the one way portals.

Brainstorming some more... in the capitol, only the designated few can use the outbound portals. Either the portals themselves are heavily guarded, or to use them for outbound traffic you need a magical amulet.

So: the outlying cities send tribute "inwards". But if they don't or they act up, a small army of magically enhanced soldiers comes through the outlying cities' portal and busts a few heads until order is restored.

What about invasions from outside? This could be problematic if a sufficiently large enemy force seizes an inbound portal. Maybe the inbound portals link to a ring of cities near, but not in, the capitol which are little more than military garrisons. Then if you're a legitimate merchant or traveller you go along a heavily guarded normal road to the capitol (how about a huge tunnel through the mountain / planet's crust ?). If you're an ememy you can get attacked in the ring cities at the same time that the king sends a huge force to the originating outer city invasion site to flank and cut off the invasion.

But war isn't the only danger. Suppose a key outer city (supplies a key commodity or is part of a key ally) suddenly goes dark? The king could send people to investigate, but they can't get back because the inbound portal is dead. So it's potentially a suicide mission. Furthermore, maybe no one knows or remembers where the outer city is in geographical relation to the capitol - so it could be just over the mountain range or it could be on another planet. The PCs could be agents of the king who volunteered (or were conscripted into) a dangerous mission: go on this one way trip, find out what happened, and somehow find a way to get back. Oh and by the way, the king's wizard is destroying the portal behind you just in case enemies figure out how to reverse its flow. Have fun!

Even worse - suppose the capitol goes dark. Suddenly each individual outer city is cut off, not only from the king, but from each other - because the only way to get from City A to City Z was via Capitol C. (A -> C -> Z) There is no direct link from A -> Z. To compound the problem: City A knows that C is out but has no way of warning B...Z, so thousands of people are teleporting into... death? a trap? The PCs could be members of City A, desperately racing across the heretofor unexplored world to (1) warn other cities (2) re-establish links before City A starves to death (3) find out what the hell happened in the capitol.

Wow! My head is buzzing with ideas. Great stuff!
 

THis really blows a lot of fuses in my little head, but can anybody try to figure out the economics of this scenario. what is the casting cost of a teep circle. one thing i think would happen is the big citys would have alot of connections and links to other citys while a little city would have fewer. the bigger city simply have more resources. u could also use it so 1 gp is a one way trip through a portal for one person, and also amber would most precious
 

Let's Break It Down: Crime and No Doors

This is why there will always been some way into and out of the city that is not through the portals: crime.

As has been noted, control of the ports creates tremendous potential for hydraulic dictatorship. You'd just have to arrange things so that no one community had everything it needed to survive on its own. So you'd put your farming communities in the desert and control them through water. You'd put your urban communities in mountains and control them with food. You might even be a real SOB and control the maps, so that most people just have no idea at all where they are in relation to the rest of the world.

But hydraulic dictatorship will create massive crime. Given who people are, there would be time periods where puritanical governments made virtually everything fun illegal to trade through the portals. This would drive crime through the roof. So hardy and adventurous sorts would take afoot and find what needed to be found.

Also, what about, uh, the places away from portals? I mean, with everyone focused in, on the portals, as the only means of travel . . . what about the places that don't have portals near them? Might not want them, might be totally afraid of hydraulic dictatorship, and with good reason. And <I>no one travels over land</i>. They could do what they wanted with very little chance of getting caught -- perhaps even create their own nations and forms of goverment that exist in a really weird way to the Portal Kingdom.

Who knows? :)
 

Irda,

I still think that cultural and social stagnetation will occur - with T-circles, I think that you are going to see a homoginization of cultures accross the entire network. Using the historical analog, as travel times have decreased, so to have the cultural differences.

So if you institute a near instantaneous transportation network across an empire/continent you will start to see each distinct culture absorbed into the greater culture - changing it slightly, but overall becommnig more like the rest of the network providers.

Then as soon as homiginization has occured, you will start to see stagnentation - after all what motivation is there to change the status quo - especially from the governmental perspective. - Look at middle age China (I forget the specific dynasty - but they were around 1500 and it pretty much started when they burnt thier fleet) Once they accieved a consitent culture, nearly all progress stopped - they would much rather focus on the past rather than working towards the future.

Further clarifying my New world example of stagnetation, if Spain had a T-circle directly to China, Japan or India - what motivation would they have to discover the new world? None - especailly since they did not know it existed - rather, they would focus on what was known and seek to exploit that. Without the knowledge that the was this brand new continent to explore, you would have seen Europe turn more and more to Asia for expansion and culture - leading to more homoginization.
 

Utrecht said:
Irda,

I still think that cultural and social stagnetation will occur - with T-circles, I think that you are going to see a homoginization of cultures accross the entire network. Using the historical analog, as travel times have decreased, so to have the cultural differences.

So if you institute a near instantaneous transportation network across an empire/continent you will start to see each distinct culture absorbed into the greater culture - changing it slightly, but overall becommnig more like the rest of the network providers.

Then as soon as homiginization has occured, you will start to see stagnentation - after all what motivation is there to change the status quo - especially from the governmental perspective. - Look at middle age China (I forget the specific dynasty - but they were around 1500 and it pretty much started when they burnt thier fleet) Once they accieved a consitent culture, nearly all progress stopped - they would much rather focus on the past rather than working towards the future.

Further clarifying my New world example of stagnetation, if Spain had a T-circle directly to China, Japan or India - what motivation would they have to discover the new world? None - especailly since they did not know it existed - rather, they would focus on what was known and seek to exploit that. Without the knowledge that the was this brand new continent to explore, you would have seen Europe turn more and more to Asia for expansion and culture - leading to more homoginization.

Very well put and agree. More than likely a church would run the T-circle too if there was such a thing.
 

Crime, One Way Portals, and the Middle of Nowhere

Man, I am so glad I posted this idea. I almost lost it too because my wife walked into the room and started going over the Discover bill before I wrote it down. Whew.

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Crime: Yes, crime always seems to make its way into society. The rational response would be to not bother controlling the portals too much, and making it cheap and easy for everyone and everything to go through. This would discourage crime by making it extremely easy and cheap to do things legally. Therefore, you don't lose out on the tolls.

Of course, even in this enlightened age we call the 21st century, goverments still have major problems with this. 20 years of utter failure with "The War on Drugs" has gotten the US nowhere, but we keep plugging away.

I imagine that a crime syndicate in a Poral Empire would have its own secret portals and mages who could teleport to move illicit goods around. Going overland would be way too slow. Especially if the city they wanted to smuggle the goods to was on Rigel III, in the Gamma Quadrant :) I can see "underworld" races, such as the magic-savvy Illithids, being interested in certain types of crime. The slave trade comes to mind.

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One Way Portals
I am not sure I would personnally use this set-up, although there are definately aspects of it I really like. What I like the most about it is the new twists of politics and coercion that I never imagined when I first posted the thread.

Hmmm ... I suppose I could add that the attempted black-mail and control of distant cities by controlling their water/ food/ oil supplies would lead to a drastic increase in crime and civic unrest. The more you try to control the people underneath you, the more they squirm and make life difficult. I'm not saying it wouldn't work (for a while), just something to think about.

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The Spaces Between Cities
I imagine that the lands that are not part of Portal Network are several things.
1) Poorer. I don't care what any of the rest of you say. The economies of scale and the trade/ mercantile benefits a portal network would grant to an empire would be engines of enormous wealth. All other things being equal the cities that had unfettered access to the portals would be immensely more wealthy than cities without such access. The economics of the situation are clear.

2) Envious or Contemptous. I don't think its fair to make broad assumptions, but the fact that your neighbors to the south have access to the goods and services of a dozen worlds would have an effect on you. You might envy them and their privaleges, or you might be contemptuous of them for some perceived weakness. There are other responses too of course. Some societies might even have the self assurance to just not care.

3) Less Insular. The cities of the portal network would be, by definition, less interested in the world outside their walls, than the world inside. The source of all wealth and power comes from "inside" (in the sense that the portals are at the center of the city) not outside. The lands in between would be more aware of their neighbors, and probably more involved. This situation could change if the "outside world" forced itself into the spotlight on teh Teleportal Empire, say with regular barbarian incursions on one of the cities, or some other outrageous display of wealth/ power.

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Economics (What I live for)
A basic one-way portal, continously active with 10' radious, has a base cost of 50K GP. A basic two-way portal, continuosly active with 10' radius, costs 75K GP. Both are plus 1/25th XP cost, of course.
- FRCS, p. 61, Building a Portal

By the way, I never figure beyond the base cost. The base price is whatever the market will bear. It could be less than the base cost is some cases, and the crafting Wizard might have to sell at a loss. This happens sometimes.

The rules continue to state that a Huge sized creature can fit through a Portal of this size. Also, the portal does not have to be circular. It could be any shape with a surface area of up to 300 sq. ft. I imagine that a very efficient portal would be 20’ wide and 15’ high. This would allow some darn big wagons through. Of course, an area that used Hill Giants as porters might opt for 10’ wide and 30’ high portal. Whatever works best of course. Lets stick to wagons for this example though, just to keep things simple.

This portal is continuously active and does not need time to recharge. As fast as you can get people to walk through it, they’re on the other side. So, lets look at some prices to figure out what tolls you can get away with charging.
Teamster: 15 SP/ day (by the way, if you don’t multiply all wages on pg. 149 in the DMG by 5, the people you are paying would starve to death. Just ask KarinsDad.)
Wagon: 35 GP. Movement Rate: 20’ About 2 SP/ day in maintenance and feeding the horses. A wagon can cover 16 miles/ day.

With costs close to 2 GP/ day/ wagon in a caravan, you can see that a Portal Toll of only 2 GP/ wagon would save the merchants a huge amount of money for a caravan (and those costs assume that you don’t lose the whole thing to bandits half-way to your destination). You could probably charge as much as 5 GP/ wagon as still have happy merchant. Lets say 3 GP/ wagon.

At 3 GP/ wagon, 25,000 wagons would pay for the a two-way portal. Too many you say? Well, if only 13 wagons went through your portal every day, the portal would be completely paid off in 5 years. After that, you’re making free money, hand over fist. Just 12 wagons/ day would net 13,140 GP/ year for no additional work. And what size city do you need to attract just 12 wagons worth of goods/ day? 20,000? 30,000? Now you see. And you wondered how high level Wizards paid for those expensive spellbooks …

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Utrecht – I admit that in today’s real world, with the inter-connectedness of TV, radio and the internet, the world’s culture is slowly becoming more homogenous. That does not mean however, that I believe it will ever be truly homogenous (too many people, too may opinions) or stagnant.

“Homogenous” societies are never stagnant unless it is forced upon them by some controlling power that limits ideas and freedom of expression. Such a controlling power may arise in a Teleportal Empire, but the teleportals themselves are not it.

In fact, by allowing people to switch worlds, cultures and allegiances by stepping through a door, they would inherently weaken the power of despots to enforce stagnation. Look at the lengths that Soviet East Germany had to go through to prevent its own citizens from fleeing to West Germany. Imagine the East Germans had a teleportal. Imagine there were teleportals going across the U.S.-Mexican border. I think you can see that teleportals would be a source of empowerment for the expression of ideas, not for the repression of them.

Of course, imagine there were teleportals leading directly from Baghdad to Tel Aviv, or from Kabul to New York. They are dangerous as well as wonderful.

Irda Ranger
 

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