A world with no roads, no doors, and no boats

[Chrisling]

Re: Crime, One Way Portals, and the Middle of Nowhere

Irda is so TOTALLY right about the economics of the portals. If they in fact do work forever, it doesn't really matter how much they cost, they'll eventually pay off. So, regardless of what they cost, all it would take is a society with sufficient far-sightedness to bother to do it. Before long, the obvious advantages of the portals would create widespread duplication. In short, if it can be done, it'd be worth doing.

I also think it would lead to greater transfer of ideas. I mean, the idea of the interesting things happening when cultures meet (Boorstin called those places the "fertile verges") won't, I think, lead to a static but a dynamic culture. The fertile verges won't go away -- they'll expand to cover all the world.

However, I still wonder what with all this looking in towards the portals what would the world be like in the places without them. Would the Portal Kings care? I mean, it's not like those disorganized people without portals can threaten them in their cities without doors and where, in the case of some non-portal power attacking a portal city a million troops can be there in a couple of hours . . . . What would it be like? An alternate mode of civilization -- a syndicalist paradise? Would it be utter barbarism? Both? Neither? Other things?

 

[Hand of Evil]

Irda Ranger is right about the economics but what looks right on paper is not the same thing as accual cost.

Just look at the US and the interstate highway system, in the beginning private companies, people, and motor clubs had to build roads. The government said it would cost too much, Henry Ford (and a few others) did not want to because he said it was the governments duty. It was a report by the military that forced the issue, seeing what Hitler was doing. Now, comes the under-estimating of users. This is why we have conjestion, people were not counted (blacks), no one thought about growth on the scale from the bady boom.

Same issue with air ports.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, Teleportationals indeed! The use of vast gates could theoretically revolutionize an entire kingdom. The use of gates could allow the rapid, instantaneous transportation of large numbers of well-equipped troops, to anywhere in the empire that is threatened. At least any city that is under attack, such a city could be swiftly reinforced with forces from not one--but many other cities that are connected into the teleport web. A foreign invader could really be defeated in detail, because such an empire could focus all or nearly all of its military power at any point or individual city that is threatened, thus multiplying the force-multipliers, and crushing any invasion force. This military domination could be extended with additional teleprtation gates, all enchanted with magic defenses and fortified in great citadels throughout wildernesses and regions of strategic importance. These fortified staging areas would allow greater flexibility and continental mobility for the empire's forces, which would really allow the empire to influence other kingdom's policies merely by the knowledge that a vast army is merely hours, or at most, days away. For a kingdom that doesn't have such magical power, the fact that the empire can show up with a vast, overwhelming army in at most days or a week, when the more primitive kingdom must rely on roads and ships that take weeks and months to transport military forces would be doomed, and their leaders would realise this. Thus, after some time, like with the Roman Empire merely threatening that the "Legions will be on the way" would be more than sufficient to persuade any recalcitrant kingdom to get with the program very quickly. This reality would have a huge impact even upon the entire political scene without the empire needing to conquer every little kingdom. The only way such kingdoms would be able to avoid entire military and political domination by this awesome empire would be if the kingdom in question was *unknown* to the empire, or by geography, the empire does not have, and has not built fortified staging areas in the area yet to know that such a kingdom exists there, or be able to reach them in any meaningful way.

As far as trade goes, such gates can be hooked up to elemental planes and thus, elemental mining directly tapping into the wealth of an entire plane--infinite in its resources--would be possible. A gate opening to the plane of fire, earth, air, and water, as well as para-elemental planes, could all be guarded by vast magical fortresses that protect and conceal these gates, and allow the empire to gather unto itself the resources of entire planes, supplying it with endless granite, the purest of gold, silver, steel, gems beyond the imagination, water in endless torrents to turn deserts into paradises, and air to be harnessed in pure form which can empower all manner of things. Fire, that can be channeled to vast factories of armouries working by the tens of thousands, turning out the armor and weapons of empire. The gold available from the earth-plane harvesting would be enough to bankrupt and corrupt entire kingdoms--the empire could easily "buy" the majority of weaponsmiths and such, and pay them beyond treason. They would thus work endlessly for the glorious empire...the manufacturing outpouring would further serve to bury any opposition by the absolute flood and quality of supoerior arms and equipment available to the forces and allies of the empire.

These contacts would also allow such an empire to span worlds, learning new technologies, new magic, and new ways of doing things from a thousand different worlds. The new empire could also land in such individual worlds with an initial invasion force of staggering proportions--either enough to conquer the world entirely, or at least gain a position of vast strength and great respect and alliance, as any large powers native to the plane would seek to ally with such an awesome, irresistable empire.

The empire would have access to new animals, and this diversity would also serve to attract the world's scholars and sages, as they seek to manipulate and train new kinds of life forms, new herds of war beasts, and even compete for the rights to bring new meats and creatures to eat into their local societies. new fruits and vegetables, taken from a thousand worlds, would also be available. These things would enhance the diet of the empire, and degrade those who are out of the loop.

Such vast resources, such an awesome empire would become supremely sophisticated, and culturally, all lesser kingdoms would seek to kneel at their feet, and join the imperial greatness, less they be made irrelevant by the cultural, economic, political, religious, and magical juggernaut that such an awesome empire would be sure to become.

What do you think?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Cost and Armies

Cost is very low if you aren't going to make it permanent. Makes it very feasible as an aid to military strikes. Makes all of this a useful field of ideas for your favorite magical villains. After all, using the ocean as weapon scenario would give you 170 minutes of raw destructive power at very little cost, though you would have to take precautions to avoid being sucked through the portal yourself.

The experience cost is pretty hefty for the permanent version, however, meaning that to make it work as a dictatorial scheme you would need a lot of time, power, or helpers. All of which are available via gm feat.

Crime is an interesting part of the equation. Traditional hydraulic dictatorhip uses religion and tolerant laws to reduce it very effectively. But those big open spaces that aren't on the grid would be a real temptation for adventurers.

I don't know about stagnation. I think that depends on a whole host of other factors, but the level of homogenization I can see going two ways. If there is a high level of interdependency and some powerful controlling institutions there is a pretty high liklihood of homogenization, but I could see those institutions and that level of interdependence either breaking down or never developing very concretely and then you can have a civilization as diverse as the Greeks with very different laws, customs, and organizations in each of the grid cities. Particularly since it doesn't make sense to move that many people through the grid.

I mean there is a huge benefit to military movement, but people are probably the slowest reasource to move through such a space, hard to effectively pack that many people into a carriage or pod. I would think that diplomats, highly skilled professionals, and the occasional military force would be free to move through, but that you wouldn't see the population mobility brought about by the US highway or train system.

Except that you could, concievably, move a train through a teep circle painted on a wall. errgghh.

Still, my original point is that one possibility of this type of mobility is that instead of populations moving to meet a purpose you would see purposes moving to meet populations. I mean mines would still have to be where metal was, but instead of all the weavers moving to where the newest weaving factory is, you could train a population to be entirely weavers and people who support weavers and the low cost and tremendous range of the grid would really cut down on the cost of moving materials to the town and products out. Same with just about everything except for construction, education, and-generally-religion. Guild systems could work again as the cost of materials was greatly decreased and the comparitive value of skills went up.

The pollution we generate from moving things around would go down, but the relative immobility of this system would cause a lot of junk to build up in your local city.

Everyplace would be like Rome.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Consider the following situation:

About 30 years ago, a group of wizards got really tired of traveling to all the those wizards conventions, engaging in spell research then finding that the ancient text they need is a thousand miles away, not being able to get just the right spell component, etc. One of them suggests creating a new magic spell - a permanent teleport circle! Most of the wizards tell him he's nuts, but enough go along and, voila!, it succeeds.

At this point, every few months or so, another group of wizards decide to build one of these new-fangled devices. Seeing how useful they are, it's not long before every two-bit wizard, sorcerer, and loremaster gets "connected". Soon, the churches get involved, then the government. Everyone's having fun, exploring the new opportunities made available by this new technology. Then the merchants arrive...

Now everyone is figuring out how to make a buck with the network. The original designers are having more and more trouble connecting because the network is overloaded, leading to considerable downtime. More and more junk is traveling the network, because it's so cheap to do so, and people are getting tired of that. And then there are the con artists (you know - those guys in Nigeria)... With everyone getting ticked off, people start thinking: maybe we need some security on this thing.

Now we have groups of wizards working to set up passwords and protocols, researching new versions of the spell which can intelligently control who and what can travel through them. Of course others, trying to make a name for themselves (or just for the challenge) research counterspells which allow them to steal or fake passwords, taking control of the network. Meanwhile, many of the businesses formed to take advantage of the network are crashing, finding out that many people don't trust it, especially not with important stuff - like food, water, their lives ("Yeah, the wizard SAYS it's safe, but how can I be sure? I think I'll take the stage, thank you very much.") And of course we can't forget all those iron-fisted kingdoms that don't want any "contamination" from others, enforcing their view by executing anyone caught using a circle.

Now we have a very fluid situation where multiple interests are in conflict. Everyone with something to gain or lose is taking sides. Guilds, churches, wizards, and governments are all involved. Meanwhile most of the common people just want everyone to shut up and leave them alone.

Whew - thank goodness this doesn't happen in the real world...

 

[MavrickWeirdo]

Cities with multiple portals: How close to each other do you put them? In the same room (30 feet or less)? In the same building (100 feet or less). In different parts of the city (up to a mile)?

The issues would be traffic & security. If the city is a "connection" to your eventual destination then even a couple of miles between portals would save distance.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I have enjoyed this thread and I love the topic...I am just doing the cons.

Here is another wrench...mapping. Okay we have multible teeps to get to x, you have to go from a, b, m, and o, there is not a more direct route. Now to get back to a, you have to go to y, z then a. This is all do to one way gates. It could get very interesting and confusing.

 

[Larry Fitz]

Here are some thoughts to people considering a world based on this type of transportation:

If the circles were truly ancient and people depended on them to a potentially debilitating degree, then having the one in the PC's home town or city destroyed so that they must adventure beyond the comfortable known environs to the nearest "Big City" to get a Wizard powerful enough to fix theirs... and perhaps when they get there they find that there's isn't the only one not functioning....


Trade wars in which rival factions deliberately sabotage each others circles...

Real Wars in which one city/state sends a symbol of death on a rock through to the other city or maybe an army of Golems (March of the Iron Soldiers, anyone?)

Just some ideas....

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Domain of Teleport

All of these Teep portals and the reliance on the grid are going to require a patron gawd, and the leads inexorably to the question of a teleport domain.

But that question can be delayed, for I have made a horrid discovery.

One whose significance will rock the very foundations of our theortical fantasy world.

For you see, the ninth level domain spell for the rune domain, per FR, is Teleportation Circle. And, as we all know, only dwarfs and giants have access to this domain. And further, what dwarf cleric who had this domain wouldn't get at least three levels of the Runecaster prc?

Which three levels then allow the caster to create runes with a permanent spell effect with a great deal of time, effort, and expense but with no sacrafice of experience!!!

Oh yes, my thread posting friends, the dwarf conspiracy to repopulate their ancient strongholds becomes clearer with each passing moment.

First, the dwarfs send out the word that a former dwarfen hold is ripe for plunder.

Second, a group of unaligned adventurers plunders the place, then abandons it to cash in on their lewt.

Third, a lone dwarf scout is sent through a portal to the abandoned mine with... ...a rune of permanent teleportation circle that anchors to the original hold!!!

Fourth, the dwarfs now have a functioning link and either resettle the hold or simply work the mines with noone the wiser.

I tell you any adventurer who participates in that forge adventure is simply furthering the secret dwarfen agenda!!!

Stop them before they reposess the ground beneath our feet!!!

 

[Joshua Randall]

Originally posted by SHARK
Such vast resources, such an awesome empire would become supremely sophisticated, and culturally, all lesser kingdoms would seek to kneel at their feet, and join the imperial greatness, less they be made irrelevant by the cultural, economic, political, religious, and magical juggernaut that such an awesome empire would be sure to become.

What do you think?

Excellent. The Empire of a Million Worlds dominates the universe. The Citizens of that empire taste the fruits of that domination. Their interests are protected by the Invincible Legions, an army so vast and powerful that its mere appearance is enough to enforce the Emperor's will. An army that need not fight to be effective.

Then one day, a world at the far reaches of the Portal Lattice falls to an enemy, an enemy who also destroys the permanent Portal. What impudence! A single Invincible Legion - more than enough to handle any threat - is sent through a temporary Portal. They march to meet the enemy, row upon row of soldiers in glittering armor and gleaming weapons, deploying in perfect step like a bright parade.

The Invincible Legion is defeated.

Rage shakes the Empire of a Million Worlds. No enemy has dared oppose its will before. This enemy shall be crushed into dust. Further legions are gathered from across the universe. In a matter of days they are ready.

By this time a half-dozen additional worlds have fallen from the Portal Lattice.

Nervous laughter echoes in the halls of the Palace of Infinity. At last! say some, At last an emeny worthy of opposing the Empire! We shall have a splendid little war, then. Across the land the call goes out: the Legions need you! Join us and march to glory in the service of the Emperor!

By this time holes begin to appear in the Lattice as single worlds here and there fall to the enemy.

Transportation is disrupted, but makeshift routes consisting of multiple temporary Portals spring up to ensure that the Palace of Infinity wants for nothing. The price of quail eggs from Cestus Prime rises tenfold, and local nobles chuckle that they will have to cut back to eating them every other day. The new Invincible Legions are deployed to the key worlds of the Empire to prevent any disruption of the Emperor's diet.

The Lattice fails.

Across the universe, the Million Worlds are each... alone. Alone as they have not been in a thousand generations. Alone in the face of an enemy powerful enough to tear apart the Portal Lattice.

And now, we meet our PCs....