Aasimar and Tiefling should be Themes or templates, not races

[Umbran]

The failure of 4e is a good example of what's wrong.

"Failure" is an odd word to use to describe a top-selling game.

If "failure" did happen, it is not an *example* of what is wrong. Failure is not an example, it is at best a symptom, merely an indication that something may be wrong. You'd have to dig a lot deeper to get at what might be wrong.

If you don't do that digging, and engage in constructive discourse in the process, you leave your post in the "edition-bashing" category. We like lively discussion, but not flat dumps of negativity. Please take that into consideration as the thread goes forward. Thank you.

 

[Mattachine]

I love planetouched races . . . but I also think the core rules (the first book, at least), should have a small number of popular races: humans, elves, dwarves, halflings. It might be nice to include half-orc or goliath, too (one "brute" race).

Half-races and planetouched could be optional races, or they could be options at character creation through backgrounds or feats.

 

[Sunseeker]

The entire 4e was created to appeal to World of Warcraft players. They system itself looks like it came straight from an MMO.

Which is one of if not the top selling game in the USA and in much of the world. With something like 10 million currently subscribed accounts that level of success can't be knocked. Weather or not you like it is entirely irrelevant.

And to be fair, you're looking at it backwards. PC RPGs evolved directly from TTRPGs, MMOs evolved as an extension of RPGs. To give WoW and other MMOs their credit, they are probably a lot closer to TTRPGs than any of their predecessors have been, simply because they're dropping the player into a multiplayer environment as opposed to the isolation of SPRPGs.

They're called MMORPGs for a reason. They may lack the flexibility or variety of TTRPGs, but they are part of the RPG genre, to ignore that and attempt to differentiate paper from PC, to not look at what is successful is really just a sure-fire way to shoot a business in the foot.

This isn't about editions, this is about smart business. Catering to the massive market of MMO players, which is larger than the TTRPG market by probably a thousand fold, is simply smart business.

 

[avin]

I found the tiefling as PC race to be Wizard's awful attempt to appeal to people who play World of Warcraft, as was most of the crap in 4e.

So, where can I find a Tiefling on Wow? Playing since vanilla and find zero until now...

 

[underfoot007ct]

The entire 4e was created to appeal to World of Warcraft players. They system itself looks like it came straight from an MMO.

'I don't really know anything reguarding MMOs, but Sounds like you have a lot of MMO experience to compare this to. How many often you played WoW, and what other MMO's have you played? How is 4E like these MMOs?

 

[Sunseeker]

So, where can I find a Tiefling on Wow? Playing since vanilla and find zero until now...

Not to mention Tiefling was first introduced in Planescape in 1994, and later in the PHB in '96. It was first made a truly "playable race" in 2001, still a full 3 years before WoW even launched.

The closest race tieflings could be compared to in WoW is the Draenei, who actually first appeared in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne expansion. Even then we're only talking about physical appearance, beyond the slightly demonic look, the Draenei and Tieflings have almost nothing in common. Still they didn't become a truly playable race until 2007 with The Burning Crusade, which is over 6 years AFTER tieflings were introduced as playable races in 3.5.

Burning Crusade launched in January '07, while 4e with the Tieflings in PHB1 launched in August '07. I kinda doubt that within the 7ish months between the two Wizards went and copied the Draenei.

 

[avin]

(Stuff)

Not to mention Draenei would be closer to Aasimar than Tieflings.

 

[TwinBahamut]

'I don't really know anything reguarding MMOs, but Sounds like you have a lot of MMO experience to compare this to. How many often you played WoW, and what other MMO's have you played? How is 4E like these MMOs?

I'm not variant, but I have played a few MMOs, including World of Warcraft, and I don't really see the resemblance. There really are not that many mechanics that are distinct to 4E that are seen in any MMO. I'v never heard of an MMO with anything like marking, healing surges, the standardized power system, the short/extended rest system, or pretty much any other such thing. On the other hand, 4E doesn't really have many of the key features of something like World of Warcraft, such as its convoluted loot/crafting systems where every character has two harvesting or crafting skills, an aggro mechanic, solo/group/raid tiers, large class talent trees, cooldown and fatigue/mana mechanics for skills, skill "proc"ing, etc.

I mean, you can vaguely say the two are similar because they both have class roles, but even that implementation is wildly different. 4E has four roles with a lot of conceptual overlap, every class has a single role, and most roles have distinct mechanics (like bonus damage, "word" healing powers, and marking) to distinguish them. WoW has three roles which have very little overlap, many classes can take their pick from a few roles, and there are no clear mechanics that are the same across all roles. It is the same concept, but very, very different in execution.

In terms of flavor, WoW and 4E D&D really are not alike in the least.

I honestly have never understood comments that 4E is somehow built entirely to appeal to WoW players, considering that it doesn't really do much to do so. At the very least, I would expect it to have playable Orcs and gadget-loving tinker Gnomes if it were going that route. And of course, WoW has nothing at all like Dragonborn, so 4E's most visible race differentiates it from WoW, rather than indicating similarity.

 

[underfoot007ct]

I'm not variant, but I have played a few MMOs, including World of Warcraft, and I don't really see the resemblance. There really are not that many mechanics that are distinct to 4E that are seen in any MMO. I'v never heard of an MMO with anything like marking, healing surges, the standardized power system, the short/extended rest system, or pretty much any other such thing. On the other hand, 4E doesn't really have many of the key features of something like World of Warcraft, such as its convoluted loot/crafting systems where every character has two harvesting or crafting skills, an aggro mechanic, solo/group/raid tiers, large class talent trees, cooldown and fatigue/mana mechanics for skills, skill "proc"ing, etc.

I mean, you can vaguely say the two are similar because they both have class roles, but even that implementation is wildly different. 4E has four roles with a lot of conceptual overlap, every class has a single role, and most roles have distinct mechanics (like bonus damage, "word" healing powers, and marking) to distinguish them. WoW has three roles which have very little overlap, many classes can take their pick from a few roles, and there are no clear mechanics that are the same across all roles. It is the same concept, but very, very different in execution.

In terms of flavor, WoW and 4E D&D really are not alike in the least.

I honestly have never understood comments that 4E is somehow built entirely to appeal to WoW players, considering that it doesn't really do much to do so. At the very least, I would expect it to have playable Orcs and gadget-loving tinker Gnomes if it were going that route. And of course, WoW has nothing at all like Dragonborn, so 4E's most visible race differentiates it from WoW, rather than indicating similarity.

Of my 4E D&D gamer friends, only 1 plays WoW, and he tells me that 4E & WoW are nothing alike, which I believe. I bet that "variant" has never played WoW and maybe no MMOs at all. In that case , his analogies are pointless & totally invalid. I think he his just encouraging Edition Waring.

 

[variant]

I am honestly dumb founded that people here didn't know that 4e ripped off ("inspired by") MMOs.

What's Wrong With MMOs? D&D 4th ed. Has Answers

D&D 4th Edition - Learning from MMOs

Was 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons meant to be a MMORPG?

I mean, you can vaguely say the two are similar because they both have class roles, but even that implementation is wildly different. 4E has four roles with a lot of conceptual overlap, every class has a single role, and most roles have distinct mechanics (like bonus damage, "word" healing powers, and marking) to distinguish them. WoW has three roles which have very little overlap, many classes can take their pick from a few roles, and there are no clear mechanics that are the same across all roles. It is the same concept, but very, very different in execution.

The roles established by Everquest was tank, support, damage, and controller. WoW removed controller and folded it into other classes to simplify the game.