Abililty damage and enhancement penalties stacking?

[Malin Genie]

Ray of Enfeeblement gives an enhancement penalty to ST. "The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1." (from the SRD description.)

If a character with, for example, ST 10 and a -10 enhancement penalty to ST, and also suffers 1 point of temporary (or permanent!) ST damage (e.g. poison, a shadow, a chill touch spell...) what happens?

Does the damage make their Strength 9, and the enhancement penalty reduce it to 1, instead of 0, because of the "not <1" clause in the RoE spell?

or

Does the enhancement penalty reduce it to 1, and then the damage take the now ST 1 character down to ST 0?

or

Does it depend on the order in which the effects happen?

or

Something else?

 

[greycastle]

I'm pretty sure that the only thing that happens is the character is squashed by the weight of their own flesh

If your strength is reduced to 0 or it's equivalent, your killed.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Not correct.

From the SRD:

STR 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.

 

[Pax]

I would apply the Enhancement Penalty last, with the same caveat: the actual score won't go below 1.

Picture hitting anordinary housecat with a Maximised Ray of Enfeeblement (caster level 5); the cat gets a -9 enhancement to Strength. This enhancement penalty isn't limited by the Cat's own 3 STR ... if the Cat turns out to be a wildshaped Druid, who then shifts to a Polar Bear, the same -9 enhancement is there ... applied to the bear's 27 STR.

So, as a Cat, it has an effective strength of 1 (3, and -9 enhancement). If someone casts a maximised Bull's Strength, the cat would still have an effective Strength of 1 (3, bonus-enhanced by +5 to 8, penalty-enhanced by -9 to ... a minimum of 1).

As a Polar bear, it has an effective strength of 18 (27, and -9 enhancement). If someone casts a maximised Bull's Strength, the bear would have an effective Strength of 23 (27, bonus-enhanced by +5 to 32, penalty-enhanced by -9 to ... 23).

That, at least, is how I, personally, woudl handle it.

Which means, if you pop a 9-point RoE and 1 point of strength damage on someone (I smell an Arcane Twinkster with "crippling strike" ...), and that someone has a Strength of 10 ... you damage their strength down to 9, then enhance their strength down to ... a minimum of 1.

And further, the next 8 points of strength damage would have no functional effect, until and unless they removed the enhancement penalty (10 minus 9 is still 1). On the flipside, a Greater Restoration wouldn't be any help by itself, as that doesn't remove enhancement penalties!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Note that if you're fighting against creatures that deal Str damage, then by the wording of the spell, it could act as a Protection of sorts.

"A dozen Shadows slip soundlessly from the walls and begin gliding towards you."
"I cast Ray of Enfeeblement on myself at Caster Level 1!"
"Uh... okay? You now have a -2 enhancement penalty to Strength."

...

"The nearest Shadow hits you again! He deals... 3 points of Str damage. That puts you on -1; you're dead. You'll rise as a Shadow in 1d4 rounds."
"I'm not dead."
"Sure you are. 'A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies.'"
"My Ray of Enfeeblement is still in effect. According to the spell, 'The subject's Strength cannot drop below 1'..."

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

That, O Diminutive Blue Sage of Wisdom and Overactiveness, is partly why I would apply the RoE last. If your STR hits 0 or less before applying the RoE ... then you're hosed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That, O Diminutive Blue Sage of Wisdom and Overactiveness, is partly why I would apply the RoE last. If your STR hits 0 or less before applying the RoE ... then you're hosed.

You apply the penalty last.

The wording of the "cannot drop below" sentence suggests that it's in the nature of an immunity.

The target of Ray of Enfeeblement becomes a creature-whose-Strength-cannot-drop-below-0. He also suffers an Enhancement Penalty to Strength.

The two effects of the spell are not, by the wording, connected.

-Hyp.

 

[mmu1]

You apply the penalty last.

The wording of the "cannot drop below" sentence suggests that it's in the nature of an immunity.

The target of Ray of Enfeeblement becomes a creature-whose-Strength-cannot-drop-below-0. He also suffers an Enhancement Penalty to Strength.

The two effects of the spell are not, by the wording, connected.

-Hyp.

Nice rule lawyering... Unfortunately, if you're going to get that deep into it, you have to consider that the idea of ability scores "dropping" is meaningless as far as this situation is concerned. The Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't "Drop an ability score", it inflicts an Enhancement Penalty. Strength Drain doesn't "Drop an ability score", it causes Ability Damage. While as far as everyday English language is concerned, both effects "drop" ability scores, that's not what the phrase means in the context of D&D rules.

Which means that, unless you want Ray of Enfeeblement to protect you from having your scores dropped by, say, aging, that last sentence of the spell description is comepletely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unfortunately, if you're going to get that deep into it, you have to consider that the phrase "lower an ability score" is meaningless as far as this situation is concerned.

Particularly meaningless, since that phrase doesn't appear in the spell description...?

At least, not in the SRD. No PHB handy.

-Hyp.

 

[mmu1]

Particularly meaningless, since that phrase doesn't appear in the spell description...?

At least, not in the SRD. No PHB handy.

-Hyp.

Excuse me, it's late here... There, all fixed (damn tendency to paraphrase...) and you're still wrong.