Abilities: More, less or just right

[GreatLemur]

And then, since you've taken away a save from wisdom (perception) move the "reflex" save to perception (wisdom). Leave dex with no save attached, it's still one of the stronger stats even without the save, and charisma really needs the extra boost. Besides, the "reflex" save makes more sense on a stat about insight and perceptions than on a stat that you don't get to use when surprised in any case other than that save.

Yes! My thinking exactly! Along the same lines, it would make sense to give Initiative to Perception, as well.

I'd also move Heal and maybe Profession over to INT (I only say "maybe" because Profession is a varied catch-all which a lot of different stats might apply to, depending on the job), and maybe Search should be PER rather than INT. I'm also extremely tempted to give melee attack rolls back to DEX and end STR's reign as "the most valuABLE stat." But then I might weaken DEX by moving ranged attacks (or only projectile attacks?) over to Perception, as well as giving Open Lock to INT. Dexterity would then represent gross physical agility rather than reaction speed or manual dexterity.

Of course, the big question is what to do with the divine and spontaneous arcane casters. Willpower makes more sense as a magic-fueling stat than Charisma ever did, so Sorcerers and Bards are fine. Some folks might take issue with the idea of Clerical spellcasting being based on Perception, but I actually think it makes more sense than Wisdom ever did: The new stat more explicitly represents openness and sensitivity to subtle external phenomena, and that can mean spiritual contact just as easily as it means Spot checks.

But then maybe it's a little too weird and generalized to have the same stat linked to archery, reacting to danger quickly, and communing with the gods?

 

[Ferret]

I'll stick with my Six, I like it that way. I do find the Nine in V:TR col, burt they are two different systems.

 

[Sadrik]

I think this sort of solves the this stat should be used for this insted of that one because it says well there is more than one factor.

I ripped this from another thread about the similar thing.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=136605

Below the Int and Wis bonuses could be switched Int for Will and Wis for Ref. In fact I think I like that better...

Here are some of my ideas that I have never used:
Fortitude save is class bonus + Str Mod + Con Mod
Reflex save is class bonus + Dex Mod + Int Mod
Will save is class bonus + Wis Mod + Cha Mod

Makes every save have two stats hopefully limiting the dump stat phenomenon.

Divine casters spell DC is 10 + Wis Mod + Cha Mod + spell level
Arcane casters spell DC is 10 + Int Mod + Wis Mod + spell level
Psionic/Innate casters spell DC is 10 + Cha + Int Mod + spell level

Everyones saves would be higher and everyones DC's would be higher too. If you just wanted to use the caster DC's split into two stats and not the two stats for saves then have the base DC's start at 5 rather than 10.

Any thoughts?

Sadrik

 

[ARandomGod]

Everyones saves would be higher and everyones DC's would be higher too. If you just wanted to use the caster DC's split into two stats and not the two stats for saves then have the base DC's start at 5 rather than 10.

Any thoughts?

Sadrik

Should help to eliminate the dump stat, as you suggest. Saves and DC's would be higher, thus almost balancing out... I'm not sure it entirely balances however, as say a fighter will have an even lower relative will save under that system than under the current system (and fighters are horrible at will saves). I think it would be easier to take the average of the two... that wouldn't change any DC's or saves.

 

[Sadrik]

Should help to eliminate the dump stat, as you suggest. Saves and DC's would be higher, thus almost balancing out... I'm not sure it entirely balances however, as say a fighter will have an even lower relative will save under that system than under the current system (and fighters are horrible at will saves). I think it would be easier to take the average of the two... that wouldn't change any DC's or saves.

Well, if the fighter dumps into Cha they should have at least one bonus mental stat.
If a fighter had a 16 str, 13 dex, 15 con, 14 int, 8 wis, and 12 cha that would give him decent saves at first level. Lets see:

Fort 2 base + 3 str + 2 con = +7
Ref 0 base + 1 dex - 1 wis = +0
Will 0 base + 2 int + 1 cha = +3

An average arcane caster taking the same stats above would have DC's and saves of:
8 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 16 int, 15 wis, and 12 cha

DC would be 10 + 3 int + 2 wis = 15 + spell level

Fort 0 base - 1 str + 1 con = +0
Ref 0 base + 2 dex + 2 wis = +4
Will 2 base + 3 int + 1 cha = +4

Under this it appears it would give the caster a 1 point effective increase on his DC's against a fighters will save. Which I admit is huge. The base spell DC could be 9 thereby eliminating the advantage or give everyone a +1 save bonus or fighters could spread their stats better...

Sadrik

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't especially care how MANY stats there are (or whether some are dump stats for certain characters), but I would like to see the bonus = (stat - 10)/2 system removed for a simple bonus = stat system. True20 handles it the latter way; hopefully it will catch on.

"My Strength stat is 16 so my bonus is +3" adds nothing to "My Strength stat is +3." The only things it does add are artificial, such as having feats key off odd-numbered ability scores.

 

[ARandomGod]

I've played a few fighters... and they generally dump charisma and intelligence. I mean, the gruff, lightly stupid aggressive fighter is a common stereotype. Plus what (other than saves) is he getting from those stats>? Skill points? Skills are practically useless to fighters. Charisma skills? See answer number one, not enough skill points in the first place to even matter!!

 

[Sadrik]

Ew, see I guess that is where we differ I like having at least a 13 int, for the feats it opens up, the bonus skill points and the playing against stereotype. Big dumb fighters are so unimpressive to me.

I definatly will not argue about the charisma being their dump stat though. However in this variant if they want e decent will save they will have to pick up that force of personality thing.

Sadrik

 

[shurai]

I've played a few fighters... and they generally dump charisma and intelligence. I mean, the gruff, lightly stupid aggressive fighter is a common stereotype. Plus what (other than saves) is he getting from those stats>? Skill points? Skills are practically useless to fighters.

See, this right here is why I like skill-based systems (I'd call d20 a 'skill-garnished system' . . . but anyway). If your game is about combat, increase the 'skillification' of combat. For instance:

Say there's no such thing as Base Attack Bonus. Say, rather, that classes get an additional number of skill points per level based on what the BAB used to be:

+1/level = +4 skill points
+0.75/level (cleric, etc) = +3 skill points
+0.5/level = +2 skill points

Secondly, add a bunch of skills that replace BAB:

melee (Str) (can be used to parry attacks; opposed roll perhaps)
shoot (Dex)
throw (Dex)
dodge (Dex) (total skill bonus + 10 replaces armor class; armor provides DR as in d20 star wars).
unarmed (Str)
grapple (Str)

There could also be synergy bonuses in here too.

So, fighters actually benefit from high intelligence, as they should. Granted, this major revision of d20 is completely extemporaneous, so it may not be balanced or even sensical. Still, not bad for five minutes work, huh?

Charisma skills? See answer number one, not enough skill points in the first place to even matter!!

I dunno, I could see a fighter with a high Intimidate being useful in combat, since you can use it to cause the Shaken condition. After all, making the opponent miss more often is something spellcasters try to do all the time. And I would very much increase the value of Balance as well (perhaps make getting knocked down more likely and use Balance checks to prevent this).

-S

 

[shurai]

Here is the number one reason why I think that people dont like it. Clerics. Clerics should be no more better at spot and listen than any other class. If clerics have a high wisdom then they can see better, listen better survive better etc.

I don't know if I agree with you here, since Clerics don't get Spot or Listen as class skills. This means, by definition, that they cannot be as good at noticing things as, say, a Rogue, Ranger, or Monk.

But how does having a cleric cast spells off of charisma make sense? Well...
Often we think of clerics converting others to their faith: what stat?
Often we think of clerics having a raport with their diety: what stat?
Often we think of clerics having powers of diplomacy: what stat?

Of course Charisma is the answer to all of them. Besides it fits with the paladin and makes the less "MAD", same is true with the cleric and their spell turning ability.

Truthfully I think of priests and the clergy as being more wise than charismatic, although being charismatic is certainly an asset to them. If you examine religious documents (from whatever religion I'd guess, though I'm no expert), they always speak glowingly of the 'wise man' not the 'charismatic man'.

So, not to slide into forbidden territory regarding the messageboard policies here (I think I'm being on-topic; mods please correct me if not!), but speaking for myself, as a man of faith, I consider my relationship with my deity to be influenced much more strongly influenced by whatever wisdom I possess rather than, of all things, charisma. I would guess that most religious people would agree.

Still, it's your campaign, so if you like your house rules and your players prefer them, more power to you.

Certainly it is also the case that the wisest characters are often the most iron-willed and least susceptible to corruption, temptation, coercion, and deception, in real life as in literature. Some of the wisest people I know are also the most indominable. Conversely, the greatest fools I've ever known also had weak wills. Literary and cinematic examples of this correlation abound.

As far as the realism of perception skills being based on wisdom goes, I'd say it makes some sense. I guess the logic is that a wise man is a perceptive man, most of the time. In fantasy literature it's usually the "wisest" people that are the most perceptive. In Eastern philosophy too heightened awareness is associated with great wisdom. Still, I see the point of people who suggest a Perception ability score; I think it makes enough sense that I'd go along with it, gamewise.

I'd say physical appearance belongs in the realm of feats, though, since if it were an ability score it would be an even greater dump stat than Charisma is now. How about a Good-Looking feat, that gives a +2 to +4 to social skills, depending on when appearance is likely to be a factor?

-S